Talk:Otto Warmbier

Irony

It's not ironic that he never saw Otto after saying "that's the last we'll see of him". It's fitting Qwerty21212121 (talk) 10:04, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Qwerty21212121 Unfortunately, it's within a quote, so we can't alter it. -- Zanimum (talk) 04:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

60 Minutes Australia

I removed this from the article:

According to one of Warmbier's compatriots in the Young Pioneer tour, he and the rest of the group were not even in the hotel at the time of the alleged crime indicated by the time stamp in the surveillance footage the government used as evidence.

It is a video from 60 Minutes Australia, but I didn't think youtube should be used as a source. Perhaps this could be tidied up. This tourist (who is not a compatriot) gives a different account from other members of the group, who don't mention being ushered on board the plane with "machine guns". Compare with: [1][2][3] Her statement (around 7 minutes in) is that she remembers going back to the hotel around 3am, not before 2am. This is a recollection apparently years after the incident by someone who was potentially tired and intoxicated at the time. I haven't seen any other account of a group member who says this. This says, "Their second night in Pyongyang was New Year’s Eve and the whole group went out into the city square before coming back to the hotel for more drinking". Did they continue drinking after 3am? Was the bar still open? This suggests they returned to the hotel soon after midnight. Warmbier's roommate Gratton indicates that there was a "two-hour window" where no one could account for Warmbier and that he saw him sleeping in his bed at around 4:30am. I think the reality is that different people have different recollections — which are possibly based on different experiences, because the group might not have been together at this point. I think we could expand on this section, but we should be aware that there are differing accounts.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:58, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

On the other hand, this could be interpreted as supporting the 60 Minutes account: "The tourists waited in the square for hours [because of the disappearance of Gratton], until their guides eventually returned them to the hotel". This depends on taking "hours" literally and assuming the hours started from midnight. This interpretation would mean that Gratton's version can't possibly be true. Gratton couldn't have returned to the hotel at the same time as the group, and there would have been no "two-hour window". He wouldn't have returned to the hotel till after 3am and probably didn't go bowling. However, if you relax this interpretation, Stone Fish's story is compatible with Gratton's, if you accept there is some exaggeration. Gratton's misadventure could have been over quickly, and he could have returned to the hotel fairly promptly. Stone Fish is vague about the time. However, it's not all about Gratton. Journalists have spoken to other tourists and the tour guides, and no one else — as far as I have seen — has made the point that they returned to the hotel around 3am.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:41, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Muzilon, what do you think about this?--Jack Upland (talk) 08:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

As you've indicated, the various tour group members seem to have given differing accounts of precisely what happened before, during, and after Warmbier's arrest at the airport. Is there an official transcript of the 60 Minutes episode online somewhere? That might be a better (written) source. Muzilon (talk) 08:41, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find one.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:45, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

I think the problem is that if you include the 3am claim, you should note that other sources don't agree with this. But if you note that there are differing accounts, you are then raising an issue that is mentioned in no source (as far as I know). You are creating a controversy which might have very little substance. I am inclined to ignore the issue and assume the discrepancies were mainly explained by the fact that it was late at night and copious amounts of alcohol had been consumed.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:20, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

References

How many Americans?

Another problem. This, quoted in the article, says, "Ten other U.S. citizens were on the tour". This refers to "Gratton and the other tourists, a mix of Canadians, Australians, Europeans, and at least one other American". I'm not sure why we care how many Americans were in the group, but there does seem to be a big discrepancy. This says there were 20 people in the group all ap.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:57, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, we can only summarize what has been reported in WP:RELIABLE sources. I suppose, strictly speaking, GQ's mention of "at least one other American" does not automatically rule out the possibility of "10 Americans" as cited by Reuters. Muzilon (talk) 09:40, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

I think that's a bit of a stretch.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:21, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

This source says there were "about 50" (not 20) people in Warmbier's tour group, although I suspect the journalist here may be garbling the combined totals of the two different tour groups (YPT and Koryo) that were in Pyongyang at the time. The number of Americans is of some interest due to suggestions that Warmbier was focussed upon by the N. Korean authorities because they wanted to take a random American hostage. If there were other US citizens in his group, why would Warmbier have been singled out for special attention? Muzilon (talk) 01:12, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Stuff also says that they were mostly American. This says, "Of the dozens of people I reached out to who visited North Korea on the trip with Warmbier, several declined to comment because Warmbier’s family had asked participants not to speak with the press." "Dozens" implies there was more than 20. It seems likely that the Americans adhered to the famiy's wishes, and that is why only one American has commented from what I've seen. This could have led to the comment that I quoted above.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:52, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

YPT's site says we cap our tour groups at a maximum of 24 people. Once we hit 25 we divide our tours into 2 different groups with their own vehicle.[4] That might perhaps explain the apparently conflicting figures of ~50 vs. ~20 people in Warmbier's group. Muzilon (talk) 08:01, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, I was thinking 50 was a large group. This could also explain the discrepancies about the time they returned after NYE. It is quite possible that one vehicle headed back to the hotel after midnight, while the other vehicle stayed in the square waiting for Gratton (or whatever). It still remains true we don't know this basic information.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:36, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Incomplete Sentence

A sentence in the "Early Life" section reads, "He was a member of the Theta Chi fraternity and also." Chocohall (talk) 22:02, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I have repaired the damage. Muzilon (talk) 22:14, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Trump Got Him Out

You neglected to mention that Trump got him released, along with other political prisoners. Also, Trump got over 50 MIA's remains returned to the US. 2600:1700:F180:FFD0:780C:EFC2:4019:E84F (talk) 12:22, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Did you actually read the Release section? "Tillerson also announced that the State Department had secured Warmbier's release at the direction of President Donald Trump, and the State Department would continue discussing three other detained Americans with North Korea." The subsequent release of those three Korean-Americans is mentioned in an endnote. And Wikipedia already has a separate article about the MIA remains. —Muzilon (talk) 13:30, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Asian Boss

I queried whether Asian Boss is a reliable source. This is the result. Jack Upland (talk) 03:44, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

The interview with the North Korean defector isn't exactly "anonymous" as someone else suggested in that WP:RSN discussion - the YouTube video identifies him as "Chul-eun Lee" (whether that's his real name is another story). The defector's story of Warmbier being waterboarded (or worse) somewhat matches the allegations made by Kim Dong-chul, the Korean-American prisoner who subsequently made it back to the USA. Perhaps these allegations should be merged into a single paragraph rather than being dealt with in two separate sections of the article. Muzilon (talk) 05:35, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:00, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Done. I tried to find English-language sources for Kim Dong-chul's statements about Warmbier, but couldn't locate anything. Muzilon (talk) 04:52, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Second floor vs fifth floor of hotel (yet again)

@Benwetmore: please see this archived discussion. Although there was much media speculation that Warmbier may have strayed onto the staff-only fifth floor of the Yanggakdo Hotel, Warmbier's confession clearly stated that he took the poster from the second floor of the hotel.[5][6] I have updated the pertinent endnote per WP:CONFLICTING. Muzilon (talk) 19:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

The New American, a newsletter of the John Birch Society is considered generally unreliable for factual claims - see WP:RSP. Was there any of this particular speculation in clear RSes? - David Gerard (talk) 09:04, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the BBC and Huffington Post reported the mysterious "5th floor" as speculation, while The Guardian and CTV seemed to take it as fact. Muzilon (talk) 11:16, 28 August 2023 (UTC)