Talk:Ossetians

Comments

The article Ossetians is FA on the WikiIran site. Maybe something is worth to take back from them? Alex Bakharev 03:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Genetics

It's not OR, it's from the same paper by Nasidze et al that is cited below (http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf). Alæxis_¿question? 08:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll wikify it later this day... Alæxis_¿question? 08:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Eh, the whole genetics section was removed... Do we need it really anyway? I cannot assess the notability of that thing, although it seems reliable enough. Does anyone have any thoughts about it? Alæxis_¿question? 18:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

In accordance with the recent scientific researches about the Ossetians, they are a linguistically iranizated autochtonic kartvelian tribe. Their most common haplogroup is an autochtonic caucasian haplogroup G2a1a P18 ( about 70%).Dibirova H.D. ( in russian) Their closest genetic relatives are the Svans and the Mingrelians - mountain kartvelian tribes... --Allanus Cudarianus (talk) 23:09, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

A proposal for a famous people image

I suggest Stanislav Cherchesov, Kosta Khetagurov, Arsen Kotsoyev, Gaito Gazdanov. Media Sapiens (talk) 21:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

What about Valery Gergiev? He's well-known Ossetian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.247.129.114 (talk) 13:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

And also conductor Tugan Sokhiev. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.113.66 (talk) 15:42, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

better than a b/w photo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.59.87 (talk) 09:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Vasily Abaev and Vladimir Gutsaev can also be added to the gallery.--Kober^Talk 08:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes

My point is that this region was considered part of Ossetia and even formed "Ossetian district" within Tiflis guberniya much earlier than 1924 so there's no special reason to mention (only) this date here. Alæxis_¿question? 13:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC) ps. See this, for example. You can confirm this easily, I believe. Alæxis_¿question? 13:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Административное деление 9 уездов (Тифлисский, Ахалкалакский, Ахалцихский, Борчалинский, Горийский, Душетский, Сигнахский, Телавский и Тионетский) и 1 округ (Закатальский).

Where do you see the Ossetian district? The Ossetian-populated areas in Java and Znauri were parts of the Gori uyezd. --Kober^Talk 13:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

“ Т. губ. была образована в 1846 г. из Грузино-Имеретинской губернии в составе уу. Тифлисского, Горийского, Телавского, Сигнахского, Елизаветпольского, Эриванского, Нахичеванского и Александропольского и округов Горского, Осетинского и Тушино-Пшаво-Хевсурского. ... В 1859 г. Осетинский округ был присоединен к Горийскому уезду ”

Alæxis_¿question? 13:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Fine, but Осетинский округ is not the same as South Ossetia, right? So, I see no problem with the assertion that "in 1922 this part became known as South Ossetia". --Kober^Talk 13:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Can we have a photo of someone who isn't old enough to be my grandpa?

Ossetians havent died out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.59.87 (talk) 07:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Carleton S. Coon is NOT A REPUTABLE SOURCE

The article currently reads, 'The Ossetians descend from the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe. About A.D. 200, the Alans were the only branch of the Sarmatians to keep their culture in the face of a Gothic invasion, and the Alans remaining built up a great kingdom between the Don and the Volga, according to Coon, "The Races of Europe."' While it might have a place in the article as reputed origins (as a myth might), but I don't really like his name in their at all. Though I am free to admit that is a personal prejudice. Any work as completely ignored today as Coon's is needs to have some sort of disclaimer attached to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.12.156 (talk) 06:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

"You're right. His theories are far outdated, and a blanket statement that Ossetians 'are descended from the Alano-Sarmatians" is simplistic at best. Linguistically, perhaps, but the ethnogenesis of Ossetians, like other peoples, is complex and mixed. Not my area of expertise, but there would surely be intermixture of autochthonous Caucausian, Scytho-Sarmatians and perhaps Turkic elments. Hxseek (talk) 07:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Gazdanov.jpg

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Regions with significant populations

Imho only top 5 or so of them should be in the infobox. Alæxis_¿question? 20:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Stalin

There is a theory that Stalin was Ossetian, not Georgian --KpoT (talk) 03:22, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Stalin was most probably Ossetian (trough his father). Not only is his original surname of Ossetian origin, but his Y-DNA haplogroup is G2a1(a), which is typical for Ossetians: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M201_(Y-DNA)

A Dog's Heart (talk) 12:52, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there is. His father was ossetian. His original name Soso (originally Soslan) also is ossetian name along with his original surname Dzugashvili (Dzugashvili is georgian adaptation of surname Dzugatæ, russian one is Dzugaev).--Bouron (talk) 14:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Good to know this, but why there is no information about this on Wikipedia? Do you have sources regarding this topic?--Greczia (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2012 (CEST)

I am collecting sources of this in Russian Wikipedia. Here is a link. --Bouron (talk) 17:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

May we can add this sources to the English Wikipedia, too? Would be very interesting to let the people know this things. Can you translate from Russian to English? (It would be nice when you could also answer me on the other talk page regarding my edits in the article Balkars. Thanks.)

--Greczia (talk) 12:45, 29 May 2012 (CEST) Still waiting... --Greczia (talk) 13:43, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The link from ruwiki discussion is not to a scholarly article, so while it could be used to find sources, it's not a legitimate source itself. Alæxis_¿question? 20:33, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

File:Ossetian medieval castle.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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File:Dzaeudjihaeu 1.jpeg Nominated for Deletion

	An image used in this article, File:Dzaeudjihaeu 1.jpeg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 5 July 2011 What should I do?
	A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 17:39, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Subgroups

In this section I found a mistake of classification of subgroups. actually there are two major groups (subethnoses) of Ossetians: -Iron (South Ossetia and majority of Noth Ossetia) -Digoron (Western part of North Ossetia)

as for kudars - this is term for the inhabitants of Kudar gorge in South Ossetia. They also belong to Iron subethnos and is rather a geographical term than ethnic self-dentification. all kudars identify themselves as Iron.

Also kudars should not be confused with tuals (dvals etc) - tuals is separate group of tual region and they also belong to Iron subethnos.

In general I recommend to use information from russian article about Ossetians - it describes this particular matter more adequately.

This section contains a strange statement about kudars, having migrated from Ardon river gorge to their present place. Kudars never lived in Northern Caucasus

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.123.237.43 (talk) 03:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC) 

I have corrected that mistake. Next time you can do it yourself. Wikipedia is free encyclopedia and everyone can edit it.--Bouron (talk) 13:57, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Anthropology

There is a detailed description of anthropology of Ossetians in The Races of Europe (Coon). Here is the citation which can be used to form anthropology section.

The Ossetes, 166 who live in the middle of the Caucasus,

mostly on the southern side of the watershed, are tall people, with a mean stature of 169 cm., sub-brachycephalic, with a mean cephalic index of 82, and of medium head size, a head length of 189 mm., and a breadth of 155 mm.; they are only moderately leptorrhine, with a mean nasal index of 65, and somewhat broad-faced, with a mean bizygomatic diameter of 145 mm. About half have pinkish-white skins, the other half, brunet- white; similarly over half have black or dark brown head hair, the rest, brown, light brown, or light. Some 54 per cent are said also to be brown- eyed, the rest, mixed and light. Over 60 per cent are considered definitely brunet in general pigmentation, some 10 per cent definitely blond. It is of course the latter minority, and a comparison with the other Caucasic peoples, which has given the Ossetes a reputation for blondism.

As far as one can tell from present material, the Ossetes do possess a Nordic strain, which has, however, been partly altered by local admixture into Noric; other elements are one or more forms of Mediterranean, not all of which were high-headed or long-faced, and Alpine. On the whole, the result might be called incipiently Dinaric. That the Ossetes are the result of a mixture of Scytho-Sarmatian refugees from the plains to the north with indigenous peoples is, on the basis of the physical data, quite

possible.

Page 632 in the book. Various formats of that book can be found here.--Bouron (talk) 13:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Joshua Project bogus

I'm gonna remove all those Joshua Project references, as its not a relialbe source. Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 02:57, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Related ethnic groups

LouisAragon Re this why do you say that "We don't add ethnic groups to that part of the infobox based on genetics"? Alaexis_¿question? 08:28, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

@Alaexis: Why should Ossetians be an exception when many high-profile articles including Italians, Germans, Turkish people, Norwegians, and Swedes do the same thing? - LouisAragon (talk) 11:11, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

On the other hand for French people Celtic, Germanic and Romance peoples appear in the related ethnic group list. It's notable that the Ossetians are related to their North Caucasian neighbours even if their languages are not related. After all the language is just one characteristic and there is no reason for it alone to be considered. Alaexis_¿question? 11:57, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Re this edit, I find the claim that the Ossetians have less in common with their Caucasian neighbours than with Iranic peoples implausible. I'll try to find a source for this, but in the meantime we do have a source confirming the genetic relationship of the Ossetians and other Caucasian peoples which justifies their inclusion in the list of ethnic groups - unless it can be shown that reliable sources only mention Iranic peoples in this context. Please do not revert without discussion, I'd have to request page protection otherwise. Alaexis_¿question? 11:07, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

"Iranian ethnic group"

As already mentioned, the Ossetians have nothing in common with the Iranians, except for their language, which, moreover, has been isolated from the rest of the Iranian world for too long, and, accordingly, is also quite far from all Iranian languages. Speaking of genetics, it is closer to the other North Caucasian peoples, which is also noted on this page in the column "genetics". Accordingly, the wording that the Ossetians are ethnically belong to the Iranians is not correct Xæxxon-dziglo (talk) 18:31, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Since when was ethnicity determined by genetics? The fact that they remained isolated from the rest of the Iranian world does not 'un-Iranian' them. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:47, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Plays a big role. But in any case, our culture, customs, and traditions are connected with the Caucasus, because we are Caucasians. And I repeat, there is nothing Iranian about us whether you want it or not Xæxxon-dziglo (talk) 19:02, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I really don't care. But what I think is irrelevant, same goes for you. You're gonna have to do better than your own personal opinion on why we should change it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:17, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Lol, my opinion is that we are a Caucasian people ? Please do not change this information any more, you have very poor knowledge about the Ossetians Xæxxon-dziglo (talk) 19:22, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Apparently I have very poor knowledge about this topic, yet about every work disagrees with you [1]. If you keep edit warring, you will be reported. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Xæxxon-dziglo There is no contradiction here. Ossetians can be related both to Iranian people (speaking a related language) and to their Caucasian neighbours culturally and genetically. I see no problem with listing both in the infobox. Alaexis_¿question? 06:55, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

"... is one of the few Iranian languages inside Europe."

Surely it is the ONLY Iranian language native to Europe? (assuming Europe is defined by the Caucasus Mountains per normal convention). Onceinawhile (talk) 20:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Tats live in Dagestan Salazar the terrible (talk) 09:10, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Multiple issues (image, "North Caucasian" etc.)

First, my problem is that the infobox image is of an ethnic Ossetian man but the act he is doing is not Ossetian. It's called the Circassian knife dance, when they juggle daggers in their mouth and upper body. So why on earth would people think that image incapsulizes an Ossetian? I know it's because the pan-Caucasian editors in question (Taamu, Sozuruqo) who added that, thinks Ossetians aren't even an ethnic group/nation of their own, but rather some subgroup of the ficitious North Caucasian ethnicity. So why don't you add an image that represents all Ossetians and is undoubtedly a part of Ossetic culture. You can switch back to a group photo of Ossetians like on Os.Wik, would be a better choice. My second problem is regarding the excessive use of the term "North Caucasian". Besides my own opinion of it being a geopolitical construct (like Balkan) and incredibly overused, it's irrelevant if Ossetians are "genetically" related to other N Caucasian people in Russia's North Caucasus federal district. This is very commonplace for genetic or cultural similiarities between neighboring populations, and plenty of other populations around the world are related to their neighbors, this isn't exclusive to the "North Caucasus". Different cultures living side by side for centuries shared aspects of their culture with eachother, but this does not make them one nation. That is in fact a very primitive understanding of what a nation is, to think this way. This page is frankly embarassing as is. This is supposed to be an academic and professionally written page.

Sciptaen (talk) 04:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello Sciptaen. I reverted your edit and asked you to google Alexander Dzusov. Please refer to the following link, I guess it can help you with your issue. Taamu (talk) 17:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

What image would you suggest to use? Alaexis_¿question? 19:32, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

What a petty revision 2A01:C22:8509:CD00:61C1:80DA:C4F5:F774 (talk) 17:15, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Genetics

@Pamirrushanid, your edit summary wasn't completely accurate. While you added references, you've also removed sourced information from the article. Can you explain what was wrong with it? Alaexis_¿question? 21:36, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

As I read the source, it was clear to me that it was misrepresented and important context were left out. Pamirrushanid (talk) 18:22, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's not specific enough. What exactly was misrepresented and what was left out? Alaexis_¿question? 20:10, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Mild griefing

Raising awareness of user: User:Pamirrushanid. Reason: Repeatedly removing related and important information. Also removing sourced information? Feel free to corporate with the situation and explain yourself. Michael Argen (talk) 23:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello, the first time you changed the page was not sourced thus I removed it. The second time I changed it because you were misrepresenting the source and many newer studies have came taking a look at the Ossetian G haplogroup subclades that debunked your already misrepresented source. And you originally removed a sourced book too, in an attempt to push your POV. Pamirrushanid (talk) 20:51, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello, is the book you mentioned your primary source? I ask because it’s the only one cited. Also, could you clarify how my source was misrepresented? Michael Argen (talk) 11:50, 4 December 2024 (UTC)