Talk:Osage Nation/Archive 1

Archive 1

Called Wazházhe by Europeans?

The Osage call themselves Ni-U-Kon-Ska, and were originally called Wazházhe by Europeans, both meaning "Children of the Middle Waters."

What does this phrase mean? If both means the same than what language is the second? Certainly no European language that I know of. I believe the second term is from another indian language and that the europeans came to use it for some reason - but the article need to state that it is not a european word and from which language it originally came.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 12:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

As an Osage, I am not familiar with the term "Ni-U-Kon-Ska," but "Wa-Zhá-Zhe" is quite common. It in fact does mean "Children of the Middle Waters." The term "Osage" is believed to have its roots in the mispronunciation of the word Wa-Zhá-Zhe by the French traders and trappers who were the first Europeans to have significant contact with the tribe in the 1600s. However, I'll have to get back to you all with sources on that to make it more than anonymous hearsay. - Will Phillips, 20 June 2007

I too am an Osage, and have heard of the term "Ni U Kon Ska", however the only place I've seen it mentioned is in a book called "The Osages- Children of the Middle Waters" published by University of Oklahoma Press. -Nancy Jinks, 29 August 2007

I think I got everything with the name situation straightened out, Ni-U-Kon-Ska is an ancient/historical self given name for the Osage people meaning "Children of the Middle Waters". Wa-zha-zhe is the name that other tribes in the Ohio River area called the Osage people, when eventually became corrupted as "Osage". This is much like the Cherokee, who originally called themselves "Ani-yun-wi-ya", but now more commonly go by "Tsa-la-gi" which is the Cherokee word for the Creek (Muscogee) word "Cherokee" that European explorers learned first. So confusing, I know. - Phil Smith Evaunit511 08:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Because French traders likely had contact with the Wa-zha-zhe and other tribes before English speakers did, as they came from their Illinois Country, Osage looks like a transliteration of Wa-zha-zhe into French, with other changes as spelling evolved. European speakers tried to represent in their own languages and phonetic systems what they heard from the tribes.Parkwells (talk) 22:22, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Page Restructuring

The information architecture of the page seems to be all over the map. May I suggest a reformating of sorts?

• Tribal History
  • Prehistory
  • Arrival of Europeans
  • French Traders
  • Lewis & Clark and Nathaniel Pryor
  • Catholic Mission
  • Treaty Making Period with US Gov
  • Discovery of Oil & Chief James Bigheart
• Osages Today
  • Government
  • Language
• Traditional Osage Tribal Social Structure
• Osages in Popular Culture

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Washita

The edits I made to the Washita section, meant to remove some of the bias comprimising the neutrality of the article, were deleted almost immediately afterwards. I understand the Battle of Washita is a heated issue, but the language being used to describe it goes against Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Charged words like "sad chapter" and "peaceful" have no place in this article. If you have an agenda you'd like to push, consider contributing to the discussion going on at the Battle of Washita article.

I just toned down the bias again, let's see how long it lasts -Phil Evaunit511 00:37, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

osage indians

the Osage Indians were tall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.80.8.157 (talk) 23:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

yes and supposedly they could force march 100 miles in one day and ambush an enemy. If you can find the sources, please do. I can't find the 100 mile source anymore (and not sure the source was even reliable) Alatari (talk) 06:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Source requests

• Could they march 100 miles in a day?
• Their old web site stated that ex-patriot descendants of Osage were not welcome back in the tribe. This supposedly was in response to descendants (of questionable genealogy) from entering to claim a share of the oil profits. The site was redesigned. Is this still the policy? It makes me wonder what the various tribes views on ex-patriot descendants are. Alatari (talk) 06:40, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
• Source for Tim Pool (b. 1986) American independent journalist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.25.37 (talk) 16:09, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Held up the OK constitution

Claims the Osage had an unprecedented 2 delegates to a constitutional convention which would probably be the mechanism of holding it up. Who has a well compiled source list? Alatari (talk) 07:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Drum Creek Treaty

I'm afraid the opening sentence to the fourth paragraph under "Interactions with the US and relocation" is inaccurate. The Drum Creek Treaty was not actually ratified by the US and ultimately was not the legislation under which the Osage moved to their present reservation in Oklahoma.

This is an excerpt from a great article was written by Frank T. Finney that explains the relocation very concisely:

"In the treaty of July 19, 1866, the Cherokees granted the government the right to settle "friendly" Indians in any part of the :Cherokee Outlet west of the 96th Meridian. The treaty provided under certain conditions, " friendly civilized" Indians could be :settled east of the 96th Meridian. The government held with the Cherokees that the Osages were uncivilized and did not qualify :under the treaty to settle east of that meridian. However, due to an incorrect survey the tribe found itself :located east of the :meridian specified and as a consequence the government was confronted with a perplexing problem. To solve the :dilemma and mollify :the Osages, commissioners of the Government agreed with their chiefs for the Indians to move west of the 96th :Meridian, on a :tract extending west to the Arkansas River. By the Act of June 5, 1872, Congress set apart a tract for the Osage :tribe, bounded :on the east by the 96th Meridian, on the south and west by the north line of the Creek country and the main channel :of the :Arkansas River, and on the north by the south line of Kansas"

I propose amending the main article here to reflect these realities.

Bpcouch (talk) 17:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC) bpcouch

Osage Nation User Box

My Great Great Grandmother was Osage and I wanted to reflect my ancestry on my Wikipedia page but the template didn't exist.

It does now: Template:User ancestry Osage views as

This user is of Osage ancestry.

by entering {{user ancestry Osage}} on your wiki home page. Alatari (talk) 15:32, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

David Holt as notable Osage?

His state Senate website says nothing about his Osage ancestry - a blog mentions that his maternal grandfather was Osage, but not whether David Holt is enrolled in the Osage Nation. I think this would disqualify him from the Notable list, if he does not identify and is not enrolled as Osage.Parkwells (talk) 19:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• David Holt (politician), currently serves in the Oklahoma state Senate. He is the first Osage elected to the senate and the first statewide since 2006.

Do they list him? I'll look for a source for a few mins. Alatari (talk) 02:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

The Osage News paper of the People claim him as Osage. Is this enough? Alatari (talk) 02:22, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that's great - I had looked at his website and other materials.Parkwells (talk) 14:24, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Still doesn't answer the question if he claims his ancestry. I don't work on biographies much and am not used to the special rules. Alatari (talk) 09:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the article/source does answer that: Holt says I'm glad to return an Osage to the legislature (meaning him). Further in the article, he is quoted as saying, "As an American Indian and Osage, I hope to be engaged in conversations to make sure we have great relations between the tribal governments and the state,” Holt said.//Also in the article, "Holt also served as the Master of Ceremonies during the inauguration of the Osage Nation’s new government in 2006." I think that's sufficient. Parkwells (talk) 14:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Page classification

This article meets the qualifications for Class C. I have changed this page accordingly. Bruin2 (talk) 01:25, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Not Osage

Willard Hughes Rollings' Wikipedia page says that he is Cherokee, not Osage. Need source for Osage. He wrote about the Osage: Unaffected by the Gospel: Osage Resistance to the Christian Invasion, 1673-1906: A Cultural Victory (2004), a study of the Osage resistance to Christianization and success in retaining their own religion and practices.Parkwells (talk) 22:37, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Osage Nation/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

good formatting, sections filled in but brief; NB Osage language redirects to Osage Nation - separate language article needed --Skookum1 (12 May 06) Is reasonably long, but still has a long way to go; has neutrality disputes and is unreferenced, so I'm keeping it rated Start instead of B --Miskwito 22:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 22:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 01:59, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

translation of name

This is discussed a bit above, but the description in the article still doesn't make much sense to me. Here's the confusing sentence:

The term "Osage" is a French version of the tribe's name, which can be roughly translated as "warlike". The Osage people refer to themselves in their indigenous Dhegihan Siouan language as 𐓏𐓘𐓻𐓘𐓻𐓟 (Wazhazhe), or "Mid-waters".[4]

Is "Osage" a garbled French version of "Wazhazhe"? In that case, it doesn't make sense that they would have two different translations. Or is "Osage" a French version of some other hostile tribe's name for the group, sort of like how "Anasazi" was actually the Navajo word for "enemy"? --Jfruh (talk) 22:02, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Chg header for section on Indian Territory

Indian Territory is a specific, historic name and has not been changed to Indigenous Territory. Wikipedia is based on using recognized names.Parkwells (talk) 22:17, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

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