Talk:Order of Saint Stephen

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The article is about the same subject as Knights of St. Stephen. AntonBryl (talk) 14:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this article is same subject, I agree with merge. Yopie 15:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)

Support merge FlagSteward (talk) 00:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

I placed the NPOV on this page because it does not correctly explain that the order is extinct for more than 150 years. We do have a current pretender to the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany, however the Italian constitution clearly abolished orders and titles of nobility, besides this title was not even recognized by the Kingdom of Italy or the House of Savoy.

1- The article need sources in the text. 2- The user Yopie is reverting edits without even giving a reason, this is against the rules, if this continues we will need an administrator.

Thank you, EddieAlighieri (talk) 21:11, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Article is sourced, 12 books is enough. If you have problem with any particular statement, use proper template.
If you have problem with "recognition" by the House of Savoy or Italian republic, read Principles involved in assessing the validity of Orders of Chivalry and List of Orders. If you want to know more, buy and read World Orders of Knighthood and Merit.
Article is neutral, because both views about "extinction" are mentioned in part "Currently".

--Yopie (talk) 00:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will take the neutral point of view tag off, If you have time please add sources to the text. The history of the order has to be improved. The source you provided from ICOC has some respectful members but the organization is not linked to any government or state. ICOC does not attest to the validity of the orders, they took the information from the head of the former ruling houses and most of the information is currently under review. They are also a little vague. The other website is the "official" website of a pretender and not an official Grand Duke, the last Grand Duke ruled in 1859. After this we had the Kingdom of Sardigna, the Kingdom of Italy and the Italian Republic. The argument that this is a dynastic order to me looks a little flawed since the order was created by the Medici and not the house of the current pretender. Nevertheless, thank you for the links. EddieAlighieri (talk) 02:17, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality of tone was not an issue here. NPOV shouldn't be used as a weapon, though it so often is, some editors are chary of invoking it ever.--Wetman (talk) 15:29, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1562? St Stephen's Day, Battle?

In Caroline P. Murphy, Murder of a Medici Princes 2008:212f the date of inception is given as 1562, St Stephen's Day is noted as 2 August and the battle is identified as the battle of Marciano, St Stephen's Day (August 2) 1554.--Wetman (talk) 15:29, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Per Jonathan Davies, Culture and power : Tuscany and its universities 1537-1609, the date of August 2nd honors both the victories of the Battle of Montemurlo on August 1, 1537 and the battle of Marciano on August 2, 1554, as well as a family devotion to Pope Saint Stephen I.^[1] The family devotion to Pope Stephen I together with the coincidence of 2 major military victories near his feast day would be a strong enough connection to justify honoring the Pope as the patron of Cosimo's new order. Johnwilliammiller (talk) 09:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Davies, Jonathan (2009). Culture and power : Tuscany and its universities 1537-1609 ([Online-Ausg.]. ed.). Leiden: Brill. p. 33. ISBN 9789004172555.

Abolished status due to to annexation???

According to Guy Stair Sainty, a well-known expert on world orders of knighthood, the Order of Saint Stephen of Tuscany is a legitimate religious-military Order, still existing today. Together with the Order of Malta, the Teutonic Order, the four Spanish Military Orders (Order of Calatrava, Order of Santiago, Order of Alcántara, and Order of Mountjoy), and the Constantinian Order, these orders are recognized by states as true Orders of Chivalry, although the withdrawal of such recognition would not invalidate them. This is because they were each founded by Papal bulls that have never been repealed, and exist as subjects of canon law. Furthermore, the Order’s grand magistery is attached to the title of grand duke of Tuscany, whose hereditary succession is governed by the secondogeniture confirmed in the Treaty of Vienna of 1815; Italian citizens awarded the Order may be authorized to wear it by the Italian government (article 7, Act no. 178, March 3rd 1951). Thus although Tuscany was annexed, this does not mean that the order itself was therefore abolished. The former Tuscan ruling family is correct that the Order of Saint Stephen is a religious and dynastic institution not subject to dissolution by the Italian authorities. The statement in the text that the order was permanently abolished in 1859 is therefore incorrect in my opinion, and at least doubtful information. The text should be changed.Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 02:49, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please Be Careful to link to the correct Saint Stephen

There are several saints named Stephen. I noticed that this article was linked to the first Saint Stephen, sometimes called Saint Stephen The Protomartyr whose feast day is December 26th. The Order is named for Saint Stephen Pope and Martyr whose article is under Pope Stephen I and who has a feast day on August 2nd. It would probably be a good idea to add the words "Pope" or "Pope and Martyr" to the article title to avoid confusion, but I do not feel like starting a naming argument today. Johnwilliammiller (talk) 09:55, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[Davies-1] Davies, Jonathan (2009). Culture and power : Tuscany and its universities 1537-1609 ([Online-Ausg.]. ed.). Leiden: Brill. p. 33. ISBN 9789004172555.

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