Talk:Oranienburger Straße

Gespenstermauer section removed

I removed the following section:

The Gespenstermauer

Oranienburgerstraße is home to one of Berlin's few ghost legends: The ghost wall ('Gespenstermauer'). According to the legend, one can sometimes see the spirits of two children dash into the street and disappear near Oranienburgerstraße 41 (just West of the bar 'X-terrain, and slightly East and across the street from Tacheles). The identity of the children is unknown, as is the time period in which they supposedly originate (the visions are small and vague and shadowy, apparently usually seen only quickly out of the corner of one's eye), but legend has it that the child spirits will do small favors in exchange for pennies. The procedure is to stick a penny in the crumbling mortar of the old wall near Oranienburgerstraße 41 and make a wish. If the wish is modest (e.g. one that two ghost children could do), and unselfish, then it will supposedly be granted. It is unclear when the legend started, but it was known at least prior to the 1990s, among former residents of East Berlin. An inspection of the wall shows that indeed there are many pennies (and other small denomination coins) pushed into the crumbling mortar. In some versions of the story popular in GDR times, the ghost children grant wishes in return for candy.

A search of German websites, Google books and German newspapers finds no reference to this legend. The German Wikipedia does not mention it. There are a few English-language blog references to the Gespenstermauer, all of them likely a result of this Wikipedia article. The paragraph was added on 10/29/2010, and an almost identically worded blog entry appeared on 10/30/2010.

The paragraph should be restored as soon as a reliable reference can be located. AxelBoldt (talk) 19:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Hallo Axel,

I lived and worked in Berlin near Oranienburgerstraße, and the Gespenstermauer legend was passed on to me by former and current residents of the area. The German Wikipedia page does not contain a reference to the Gespenstermauer because the moderators of those pages always require written documents as references, and as far as I (or any of my friends) know, and you have discovered, there appear to be none. It's just one of those 'stories'. I respect your interest in making sure that Wikipedia contains only documentable facts. But ask yourself: How do facts become documented unless someone documents them? What if the work of the Grimm brothers had been thrown out for lack of written documents?

Go to Berlin and check it out. In the mean time, I think the entry is useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.253.30.208 (talk) 14:02, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I replaced the Gespenstermauer entry, but added a line noting that the legend was not well documented (like a lot of Berlin social history). I think that's about all we can do. It's a 'legend' after all. Ordinarily I wouldn't care too much, but I thought the story was a nice piece of information in a city that is unnecessarily obsessed with a one small piece of an otherwise very long and interesting history. It's a reminder that Oranienburger isn't just bars and prostitutes and tourist traps -- people actually live there, and have for a long time. Therefore, I think the Gespenstermauer is a piece of Berlin history worth preserving. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.253.30.208 (talk) 14:15, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I removed the section again. It's true that a legend like that, if indeed it exists, should be documented somewhere and mentioned in Wikipedia. However the documentation must happen before Wikipedia can mention it; anything else would amount to the dreaded original research. I suggest you interest some Berlin newspaper or alternative weekly in the topic. As soon as an article appears in a citeable publication, it should be included in Wikipedia. AxelBoldt (talk) 18:40, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I put the Gespenstermauer section back in again. You're right, Axel, that some independent support (outside of travel blurbs) should exist. Amazingly, a quick google search pulled up a perfect one, and I've now added the reference. The reference is a Goethe Institut blog that quotes "a sixty-something painter" who has lived his whole life in the neighborhood. The guy even adds some interesting historical detail that I had never heard before, about a local tradition of plugging holes in walls. I don't really know how to do references properly, so maybe someone could fix up the reference formatting. I simply copied and modified Axels reference from the Zeitung. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.227.123.150 (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, the page says "A provocative, personal blog on all that thrills,...". According to the verifiability policy, "personal blogs" do not qualify as reliable sources. Also, the blog post does not support all the statements made in the removed paragraph. Lastly I find it strange that yet another American writes about this legend, while no German sources seem to exist. AxelBoldt (talk) 19:44, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I do not understand Axel's problem. The blog, hosted by the Goethe Institut, clearly references a long-staying Berlin resident. I have undone Axel's removal. This also maintains the English page more similar to the german page, which has a similar section on Gespenstermauer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.241.177.83 (talk) 10:33, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Info from German Wikipedia entry

We should probably move some of the information from the German Wikipedia entry to the English page. Prominent sites not mentioned on the English page, for example, are Postfuhramt and Tacheles. These, in addition to the New Synagogue, are major tourist attractions. I might do this when I have time. Or someone else is welcome to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.253.30.208 (talk) 14:23, 13 March 2012 (UTC)