Talk:Operation Forfar

Expansion

Items that need expansion/improvement

• Full list of all operations, both those planned and those carried out.
• More detail needs to be added to the operations, what were the specific objectives, how successful were they.
• Proper background on Forfarforce should be given, who organised it, where/when.
• Map showing the targets for all operations planned/carried out should be included.
• Paragraph outlining German reaction (if any).

Graham1973 (talk) 21:19, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I dug out my notes on this operation (strange name that it was at... a good find!) and dumped them in. It's mostly from Holt, but I think Howard and Rankin might mention the ops (I will check). Cave Brown does mention it in some detail IIRC but I am loathe to actually use him as a source :) Struggling to find a full list of the ops (Holt just says "Bear, Easy, etc." which is incredibly helpful!) --Errant ^(chat!) 22:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Sources

• [1]
• [2]
• [3]
• [4]
• [5]
• [6]
• [7]
• [8]
• [9]

Before I lose them :) --22:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to try and track down a copy of this book: [10] Google searching inside it has only snippet view, but there is the suggestion that it covers the individual raids in more detail! --Errant ^(chat!) 07:33, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Followed that link and it didn't bring up the title. Incorporated information and references from the List of Commando raids on the Atlantic Wall. Forfar Beer seems been the one where multiple attempts to carry it out (See below for an attempted reconstruction). Dates in the List of Commando raids on the Atlantic Wall differ from the one that van der Bijl referrs as Forfar Beer 4 which gibes with the Cruickshank quote in the FAS document.Graham1973 (talk) 12:41, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Ah, sorry; this is the one I mean. --Errant ^(chat!) 10:58, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

That book arrived and has specific dates for all of the missions except Forfar How... --Errant ^(chat!) 09:29, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Holts Sources

I had a careful look through the references that Holt gave for his section on Forfar, sources were:

• Cruickshank, Charles (1979). Deception in World War II. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-215849-X.
• Young, Martin; Stamp, Robbie (1990). Trojan horses-deception operations in the Second World War. Bodley Head.
• Public Record Office CAB 154/20

Graham1973 (talk) 09:04, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I have the Cruickshank book somewhere, I think. --Errant ^(chat!) 10:09, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Ditto, but I'll have to open some boxes to check that out. I've posted a query to a WWII forum I'm a member of to see if it gets any useful information.Graham1973 (talk) 12:37, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I've managed to get of copy of Young & Stamps book, the information on Forfar is from an interview with historian Michael Foot who seems to have taken part in one of the Forfar raids. Further information will be needed to pin down just which one. The authors state he told them that none of the participants were advised of the deceptive nature of the operation. He also provides useful details on the outcome of that raid, the troops failed to make contact with the Germans and bought back a land mine for analysis.Graham1973 (talk) 08:16, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Forfar Beer

Looking at Cruickshank & van der Bijl, it looks like this mission was relaunched multiple times as follows:

• Forfar Beer 1: 3–5 August 1943 (?), turned back after sighting a German trawler.
• Forfar Beer 2: Unknown date, aborted due to bad weather.
• Forfar Beer 3: Unknown date, terminated when the troops could not scale the cliffs of the French coast.
• Forfar Beer 4: September 1943, featured encounter with locals at the base of cliffs.

This is an area for more research to clarify how many attempts were made to carry out the mission and if, as I suspect Cruickshanks 'third' mission and van der bijls Forfar Beer 4 are one and the sameGraham1973 (talk) 22:00, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

The Commando's transport ships were discovered en route by German patrol ship.Graham1973 (talk) 09:46, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I've been looking at the Messenger book and the dates are confusing; but it suggests How, Dog and Beer first took place on 5/6 July - 2 days after Easy - but that Beer and How were aborted. So that would likely be the first Beer mission. However Ladd (who lists several dates for Beer) doesn't mention this earlier event... Uncertain what to do. --Errant ^(chat!) 11:37, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Related to that, the mission M.R.D Foot took part in is described as taking place "...just three or four days before the Sicily invasion on July 10." Which would make it one of these three missions. Now the full quote from Cruickshank may resolve this. The following was quoted in the US armies FM90-2:

"

• FORFAR BEER made three attempts. The first turned back after sighting a German trawler. The second was aborted due to bad weather and the third terminated when the troops could not scale the cliffs of the French coast.

• FORFAR DOG scaled the cliffs but could not penetrate the barbed wire defenses. The raiding party cut out a small sample of barbed wire so as not to return empty handed.

• FORFAR EASY landed, but, failing to make contact with the enemy after an hour and a half, also clipped out a section of barbed wire and returned home.

• FORFAR HOW could not land due to heavy surf.

• FORFAR LOVE, a team of two two-man canoes launched from a motor gunboat, spotted so much enemy activity they too aborted prior to landing."

The quote comes from pages 61-84 of Cruickshank, which I suspect is his entire chapter on Starkey.Graham1973 (talk) 23:37, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

References