Talk:Onufri

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Untitled

Wikification done.

• excess links removed.

Eagle (talk) (desk) 02:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Ethnicity of Onufri

I found some sources about ethnicity of Onufri:

• Dr. Milutin Folić, historian explains that Onufri was not Albanian but Greek (in Зборник радова са међународног научног скупа одржаног на Цетињу 21, 22. и 23. јуна 1990. године): Грка Онуфрија.... није могао нити je био Албанац већ Грк [Greek Onufri.... could not be Albanian but he was Greek]
• Dr. Gojko Subotić, member of academy and chairman of Institute for Byzantium of the SANU, published an article (Грк Онуфрије по мери "Илирског стабла" [Greek Onufri measured trough "Ilirian genealogy"] in magazin Stremljenja in 1990. (pages 56-76)
• Rasolkoska-Nikolovska Zagorka, author of numerous works about frescoes and their authors, explains in her work (Tvoreštvoto na slikarot Onufrij Argitis vo Makedonija that ethnicity of Onufri has been subject of numerous disputes, but latest findings (discovery of his last name - Argitis together with discovery of Venetian register which contains data about Onufri's family members being members of Greek brotherhood) were interpreted by many scholars like G. Golobijas and G. Subotić, one of the best experts of late Byzantine paintings on Balkans, as final evidence that Onufri was Greek. In her work Rasolkoska-Nikolovska agreed with Golobijas and Subotic emphasizing that Onufri could not gain high artistic level in painting in Berat, like Albanian scholars insist, but only in Venetian Republic where he was a member of Greek brotherhood. His last name Argitis is accepted by many other scholars like Janis Sisiu and Mirjana M. Mašnić.

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course he is not Albanian in any sence. It is not even known where he was born, he left no writings in Albanian language, not one of his contemporaries says anything about his ethnicity/language. The only certain is that he was Orthodox and knew very well the Greek language. Certain users erase references because they include photos of Onouphrius' inscriptions and signatures in Greek. These will be transcribed here soon. --Euzen (talk) 12:35, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't completely agree with you that he was not Albanian in any sense. There are lot of sources with information that he indeed was Albanian, in sense of demonym, i.e. resident of region of Albania. That, of course, does not mean that his ethnicity was Albanian. I think that we should not hide from the readers of this article that many scholars and experts in this field claim that his ethnicity was Greek, together with information that many Albanian scholars dispute his Greek ethnicity claiming that he was Albanian. Also, I think that it should be clearly stated that places that he lived and worked at were part of the Ottoman Empire (that important information can not be found in the existing version of the article) --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't quite understand your view on "demonym". Onouphrios resided in many places, including Achrida, Mt. Athos, possibly Venice. On the other hand, many sources of that period name "Epirus" the whole area including Albania. Shall we call him Epirote? The fact is that some tertiary sources and one Albanian author call him "Albanian" for different reasons, but modern dedicated studies (approved by the Museum of Onufri in Albania, as I will show) say clearly that "we don't know anything about him" and that his origin is debatable. Let's stop cheating about nationalities and just rely on the facts. The title is improper as well, but can cheat only chinese schoolboys.--Euzen (talk) 11:20, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The article about Demonym says that demonym is a name for a resident of a locality. A person can have many demonyms. Demonym do not determine ethnicity. Take for example Monica Seles. There are sources about her as "serbian tennis player Monica Seles", "American tennis player Monica Seles" and "Yugoslav tennis player Monica Seles". And her ethnicity was Hungarian. In case of Onufri, he indeed was Albanian painter because he lived in region of Albania in one period of his life. But he was also Greek, Macedonian, Epirote, Venetian, Ottoman,... whatever locality author of the source can chose for him.

According to WP:MOSBIO the lede should contain only information about his nationality, based on the country he was citizen of (Ottoman Empire and maybe Venetian Republic). His ethnicity can be added to the lede only if it "is relevant to the subject's notability" (which I think is not the case here). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Antid. none of your sources is RS. I may not have a perfect understanding of Slavic languages, but sections like "Тако je тај словенски живаљ постепено нестајао на тлу Албаније, јер су му прво одузимали културне-верске храмове и претварали их у албанске, а онда поступно нестајала je и словенска култура. Но, отпор словенског живља био je сталан. Јастребов је чинио све и мимо својих дипломатских овлашћења да би га заштитио од турских власти и католичке пропаганде, иступао пред турским властима као заштитник православних верника и њихових права." i.e anti-Catholicism, Albanophobia etc.. Btw Nikola Dudic etc. and their polemicist works about the sacred Serbian art of Kosovo etc. are not RS either. They all seem to repeat the sentence Albanians conquered Serbian temples and turned them into Albanian ones.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:34, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The source in Greek that is RS unlike the polemicist ones, explains that as Argitis appears only once in a fresco near Kastoria, Argos is probably located in the Kastoria region.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:07, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Can you present any source for your claims that sources I presented are not reliable because they are anti-Albanian and anti-Catholic or you just don't like them?

You are free to go to RSN if you believe that sources (all written by contemporary scholars) I presented are not reliable. Your deduction about Argos in Kastoria is WP:OR together with connecting "sacred Serbian art of Kosovo etc" to our discussion about Onufri. Argos in mention is not the one located in Kastoria region. The Greek scholar from the referenced source I provided explains that Onufri lived in Argos which is near Nafplio in the Peloponnese, then under control of Venetian Republic (Zaminuvanjeto na Onufrij od rodniot Argos i naseluvanjeto prvo vo sosedniot Navplion se opravduva so faktot što vo toa vreme Navplion bil pod Venecija i naedno bil golem centar na Pelopones, zaklučuva Golobijas).

The source in Greek you mention as reliable is written by Janis Sisiu. Here is his work dedicated to the author of the informations from sources I presented, the Greek scholar Golobias, in which he praise him and his conclusions after recent findings about inscription on the Church near Kastoria and population registers in Venetian archives. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:19, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Can we have in the references an english translation of the quotation in slavonic?--Euzen (talk) 11:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Done.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:57, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise. Although I agree with some of the wording you used in this edit (diff.) I don't understand why did you:

1. remove information which explains citizenship of Onufri (Ottoman Empire)? (I explained inclusion of this information on this talk page before you removed it without explanation. Such information should be present in the lede of the article, according to WP:MOSBIO).
2. remove referenced information about his ethnicity?
3. remove referenced information about very important reading of the inscription in the Holy Apostles church and discovery of the population registers in the Venetian archives? Many sources I provided show that there is a high degree of acceptance of this findings among scholars and experts on the subject.

Will you please be so kind to explain your edit and give answer to the above three questions?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:43, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I removed the "Ottoman Empire" bit because it was grammatically awkward. "a 16th century Albanian (then part of the Ottoman Empire) painter"? "Albanian" is an adjective. Adjectives aren't parts of empires. And parentheses shouldn't be between the adjective and the head noun. About the remark regarding the Venetian archives and inscription, it just wasn't obvious from your material what these details were and why they mattered. And the whole of the ethnicity stuff appeared questionable because of the polemical nature both of some of the sources and of the preceding editing here, so it seemed better to remove both sides of it until that gets sorted out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:55, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply which I think fails to justify your above mentioned removals:

1. Regarding the Ottoman Empire issue, I don't think this removal was completely justified taking in consideration that you reworded the lede and removed Albanian adjective, so grammar issue was not an issue anymore.
2. I think that your removal of information about Venetian archives and correct reading of the inscription was also unjustified because I already provided explanation (with sources) why they are important. Will you please be so kind to read again this talk page and references I provided (if necessary) and let me know if you think that they are insufficient?
3. I provided two referenced sources with explanation that four authors supported information that Onufri was Greek: Rasolkoska-Nikolovska Zagorka, G. Golobijas, G. Subotić and Folić Milutin. Can you please point to the authors whose works you believe are not reliable because of their polemic nature? Is there any policy on wikipedia which allows editors to remove referenced information only on the basis of their belief that sources have polemic nature? If not, why would polemic nature of the source affect its reliability?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:07, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I removed the bare-link citations which did in fact have no mention of him as being "ethnic Albanian".--Zoupan 13:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.

Epithet or last name

Antid:First of all epithet is a term scholars use for such cases and if you delete any more content using Sissiou as source (whose paper you can't read as you don't know Greek) given the number of reverts you've made in the past 24 hours, I'll ask for admin intervention. That being said don't add on the lead your own transliterations(Argitis) of an epithet that appears only once in a fresco as it isn't used by any works and also don't attribute your own edits to other users. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:51, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Everything you wrote is incorrect.

1. Work of Sissiou contains part written on Serbian language (take a look at page num 354) which says: "У спомен Јоргосу Голобијасу - Пажљиво читање натписа цркве Светих Апостола од стране Јоргоса Голобијаса, омогућило нам је да откријемо целокупну личност једног уметника" which contain information that he dedicated his work to Golobias and that he praised his careful reading of the inscription on the Church in Kastoria.
2. "Onufrios Argitis" is not my "own transliterations" but signature used by Onufri himself and endorsed by many contemporary scholars who are experts in the subject. Check the quote from reference number 4 (before you changed Argitis into Artitis) if you want to see work which uses „Onufrios Argitis". You can also check above mentioned works written by Sissiou (Анализа ових Касторијских икона показало да је Онуфрије Аргитис био врло значајна и харизматична личност or Mirjana M. Mašnić peintre Onufre Argitis.
3. Here is edit of Future Perfect at Sunrise who added Onouphrios into the lede of the article and reworded a sentence from the text to look like:"His last name Argitis may point to Argos, in southern Greece, as the place of his ancestry."

The only thing I agree with you is that we really should ask for admin intervention. Because of your disruptive editing.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

In fact only 1-2 pdf files use that epithet i.e don't add it again as it's not common or even rare. That being said the rest are unrelated with Sissiou's work (the main part is in Greek and that's what I'm quoting so since you can't even evaluate it don't remove it again).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:28, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Arg(e)itis might be too much to stay in lead, but the alternative form On(o)uf{ph}rios is common in bibliography. It was also the name it always signed his works, apart from the surnames. So it wouldn't be much to add it next to Onufri in the first line.Alexikoua (talk) 00:33, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Master of the Berat school of painting

Here [1], we have a painting school in Berat

The master of the school of Berat/le Maitre de l'«école» de Berat [2]. And: the "correct reading" - that is, as understood by Golompias - of the two controversial words at the end of the inscription... [3]

Here we have only "allegedly" material. Even if he was from Argos - I doubt that - that doesn't mean he was automatically Greek.

Majuru (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Scientists "fighting" around a letter or two

It seems that half of the scholarly job around Onouprhios is not about his paintings but about an inscription of 1547 bearing his name and his possible origin.

See yourself how complicated thinks can be in Greek. The whole inscription is here, page 333. Onouphrios is mentioned in the last line (line No. 7): George Golobias (1983) The ctetorial (founding) inscription in the Church of Agioi Apostoloi of Kastoria and the painter Onouprhios. published in the periodical "Makedonika"
Don't try to read it even if you know Greek because some words are abbreviated in hieratic style of byzantine palaiography AND some crucial letters are worn out. The first who dealed with this inscription was Rev. Germanos Christides in 1922, followed by several Greek scholars, experts in palaiography (Orlandos, Tsamises, Moutsopoulos, Gounaris etc). It seems that none of them is happy with the reading of the previous and the story goes on. Line 7 is reconstructed by Golobias in p. 334, as: "The painter Onouphrios Argetes from the briliant city of Venice ..."

Correction: It says "the most brilliant city of ...". This is important to identify the missing letters after "Ve...". Earlier Albanian authors were hurry to understand it as "Veration" (and thus "Albanian"), but more sober authors argue that the most humble Onouphrios would not call Berat a "most brilliant" city, especially if this was his birthplace. Onouphrios was so modest that he signs as "supposed to be painter" (Ονούφριος, τάχα και ζωγράφος) (see title of I.Sisiou's publication: [4].

The author dedicates pages 338 to 343 (!) to the words "Argetes" and "Venice" (Αργήτη and Βενετίον in Greek). In p. 339 he offers a detail of this line. The complex on the left is understood as abbreviated "ΑΡΓΗΤΗ" and on the right the complex "ΒΕΝΕΤΙΟΝ". Previous scholars read other words instead of ARGETE, mostly "του άρτι" (who just). Golobias seem to have done the most thorough examination of this word and concludes to the reading of AΡΓΗΓΗ (from Argos), p. 338 down and 339 down). He asserts that the name "Onouphrios Argites" is also found in the books of the fraternity of San Giorgio dei Greci in Venice (others argue that it is not sure if this is the same Onouphrios). Golobias explains that Argites can mean either his birthplace or it was a surname meaning that his ancestors were from Argos. The subsequent reference of Venice means that he had stayed/studied painting in Venice but could also mean that he was born there (p. 340, 1st paragraph). Rev. Christides reads "Grevena" instead of "Venetion" and Albanian researces read "Veration". Here we find the names of Popa, Puzanova and Dhamo (p. 341 up). In footnote 3, p. 341, Golobias remarks that "the Albanian scientists stretch the Albanian nationality of Onouphrios" and gives all their publications with no more comments. We must understand that modern Greek byzantinologists who study similar cases want to have good relations with their co-workers and authorities of the neighbour countries and do not want to get involved in nationalistic dog-fights. However, we the independent reader can see that all the Albanian bibliography and one Italian occurs in the totalitarian national-communist regime of Hoxha and nobody expects to find there a non-Albanian Onouphrios. But the official catalogue of the Albanian byzantine paintings exhibition in Thessalonike, which was co-organized by Greek and Albanian authorities (a reference that I found painstakingly and certain users erased), contain a good review of the relevant bibliography and Onouphrios is not characterized "Albanian". The (Greek) author of that essay adopts a middle way, reading the important line as "Onouphrios who just (came) from Venice" and says that we don't know On. origins. Thus, I propose that in this article we include the general atmosphere of this debate in one line and we add that "some experts believe that Onouphrios has signed as "Argites" in a wall painting in Kastoria and possibly in archival material of the Scuola dei Greci in Venice". Btw, respecting the persons whom we are writting about, we should accept the name THEY called themselves. On. everywhere signs as "Onouphrios" (ΟΝΟΥΦΡΙΟΣ), all scientists call him so and I don't see who is calling him "Onufri". The latter is the vulgar name used both in Greece and Albania. I may call my friend "Onufri" (Ονούφρη) but if he becomes famous he will be immortalized as Onouphrios. Unless he is a rap singer.

Thank you very much for this detailed explanation of the importance of correct reading of the an inscription of 1547 bearing his name and his possible origin.

• The information about very important reading of the inscription in the Holy Apostles church and discovery of the population registers in the Venetian archives has already been included in the text of this article, and referenced source showed that many contemporary scholars and experts in the subject support it. That information was deleted by Future Perfect at Sunrise diff. When I asked him to explain his removal he wrote: "it just wasn't obvious from your material what these details were and why they mattered", although the sources I provided and explanation on this talk page clearly emphasize the importance of recent interpretations of his signature and archival material of the Scuola dei Greci in Venice. I explained that to him and wait for his reply. Maybe he did not see my question so I will leave talkback template on his talkpage. I hope that your detailed explanation can help him to realize that these details mattered.
• Onouphrios is again included to the article, based on the consensus we reached (if User:ZjarriRrethues continues to refuse to accept consensus and remove it he will be reported).
• I understand that Greek author of some essay chose to present middle view about his ethnicity, but according to NPOV we should present "fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources."--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:50, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Beration

Unfortunately, the Βε[νε]ετιὸν or Βε[ρα]τιὸν makes the identification impossible. I think we should better use Elsie's [5] dictionary.Majuru (talk) 12:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Norikpallaska's edit

The article by intoalbania.com doesn't discuss Onufri's ethnic background, and it is WP:QUESTIONABLE; it is a promotional website of Albanian tourism and a non-scholarly source. Lleshi (2013) is also problematic and looks like a self-published book. The thearthistoryjournal.blogspot.com is a WP:USERGENERATED source. Furthermore, i don't know what to make of Zeqo (1998); "Medaur" is a rather obscure publisher. Last, there are sources that state he was ethnically Greek, and thus this also violates WP:NPOV; see MOS:LEAD. Demetrios1993 (talk) 23:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)