Talk:Once Upon a Time in America

Deborah's Rape and her reaction

How do we feel about the wording of this passage: "Seeking to form a genuine intimacy with Deborah, Noodles takes her on a lavish date, where she reveals her plans to pursue a career in Hollywood. On their drive back, a frustrated Noodles rapes her in the limousine. He is later met with Deborah's aloofness when he watches her board the train to California."

Feels quite problematic, perhaps?

First, the word 'frustration' might be his personal motivation, but its use here feels a bit off... and secondly Surely not wanting to make eye contact with someone who raped you just hours before seems like a justified reaction, and not anything to do with being "aloof?"

James woods commentary

the article mentions above that Gene Siskel called the American edit the worst movie of 1984 and the original edit the best.

Then later it references James Woods telling of a critic who said the same thing. I think this is a little redundant, given it's highly likely Woods is referring to Siskel in the first place CornflakeCancer (talk) 18:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Fine tune the plot?

I appreciate much work has already been spent on doing the plot and it is already beyond the suggested 700 words. However, I do feel we should fine tune it to a) expand on the love story between Noodles and Deborah as this unfulfilled love is one of the key theme of the movie, next to the friendship with Max , b) correct smallish inaccuracies (e.g. at the time Noodles sees Deborah's photograph when meeting Carol, Deborah is not "still an actress" but has "become a famous actress" and c) (but to be discussed) add a few words on the scene of exchanging the newborns as it is a key scene). I had done such edits but they were reverted on the basis of the final word count being too high. Happy to discuss the actual wording of course, but I would appreciate consensus on a) and b) and potentially c). If actual word count is the issue, we could also strip the present text for a few words so that overall word count it not increased, however, this would lead to some deletions that I would not want to do without consensus. Thanks Jaeljojo (talk) 07:11, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Frankly, it is a waste of time. Any decent summary is going to be deleted because of this absurd and arbitrary "700 words"-rule. Dimadick (talk) 10:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. The rule actually says "should not exceed 400 - 700" unless (now paraphrasing) "the film warrants a longer one". So I cannot see how it should brutally apply to a 4h epic movie. And by the way the current plot summary is already more than 700 words. Anyway, I will suggest changes so that the total amount of words is not (or minimally) increased. Jaeljojo (talk) 15:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Please see proposal for fine-tuned plot below. In total it has a few fewer words than the current version, so I guess that should not cause a problem. It would be good to get feedback whether this new plot is acceptable. It still would need improvement at a few places, but I did not want to change too much and more than was in my view absolutely necessary.

"The movie covers events spreading over 40 years starting in the 1920ies and is told in an Nonlinear narrative. In the prologue that is set in the 1930ies, three thugs search for a man named "Noodles". It turns out Noodles is drugging himself in an opium den with a newspaper next to him, featuring the death of bootleggers Patrick Goldberg, Philip Stein and Maximilian Bercovicz. He recalls the police removing their corpses, burnt beyond recognition. Noodles evades capture and leaves the city.

The plot turns to the 1920ies as David "Noodles" Aaronson leads a boy gang of him and his three friends "Patsy" Goldberg, "Cockeye" Stein and Dominic, committing jobs for local boss Bugsy. They meet Max as he foils one of their robberies but has the booty stolen from him by corrupt police officer Whitey. Max and Noodles later manage to blackmail Whitey as he has sex with underage prostitute Peggy and get the same police protection as Bugsy.

The group successfully get involved in liquor smuggling. They deposit their earnings in a railway station locker, giving the key to "Fat Moe", a friend not directly involved in their activities. Noodles is in love with Moe's sister, Deborah, who dreams of becoming a dancer and actress. Deborah clearly feels for Noodles too, but makes it clear that due to his socialization as a gangster, they can never be together. Bugsy, now a rival, eventually ambushes the gang and fatally shoots Dominic. In a fit of rage, Noodles stabs and kills Bugsy and is sentenced to prison.

Upon his release from prison Noodles rejoins his friends who have continued their criminal activities and treated Noodles as a partner despite his absence. Their next job is a diamond heist using jewellery employee Carol as their informant. During the robbery, she goads Noodles into hitting her, after which he rapes her, evidently her enjoying the sadistic treatment; she later goes on to become Max's girlfriend. Noodles realises after the heist that their job had been commissioned by a Syndicate figure to eliminate competition. This sits badly with Noodles who seeks independence and leads to tensions between Noodles and Max. The gang gets further involved in the struggle around the labour movement and provides protection for Teamsters' union boss Jimmy O'Donnell, during the course of which they "play god" by exchanging newborns at a clinic in order to hurt the head of the police whose wife has just given birth to a boy. This eventually succeeds in the police withdrawing their actions against striking workers. When further political actions are discussed, further tensions between Noodles and Max emerge.

Noodles reconnects with Deborah and takes her on a lavish date. The feelings between the two are clear and they exchange intimacies, and he admits to having loved her all his life. When she reveals her plans to pursue a career in Hollywood and to leave the city, he snaps and rapes her. When she departs by train the next day, he attempts to catch a glance of her sitting in the train, but she avoids eye-contact.

The repeal of the Prohibition forces to gang to look for alternative activities. Max suggests a New York Federal Reserve Bank heist, which Noodles and Carol deem a suicide mission. She convinces Noodles to inform the police about a lesser offense, hoping brief incarceration will cool off Max's ambition. After Noodles calls the police, Max knocks him out during a seemingly impromptu argument. This leads to the events shown in the prologue as upon regaining consciousness and learning that Max, Patsy, and Cockeye have been killed by the police during the heist, a guilt-ridden Noodles hides in the opium den. During his subsequent escape, he realises the railway locker money has disappeared.

The plot turns to the 1960ies and Noodles who has not visited the city since the events in the 1930ies arrives in Manhattan as he had been informed that a cemetery is being redeveloped and he is being asked to rebury any loved ones. Noodles understands the letter as a sign that he has been uncovered and he seeks to find out who is behind this. He learns that the bodies of his three friends have been relocated to Riverdale. He visits their mausoleum in Riverdale and finds a key to a railway locker. The caption on the commemorative plaque falsely states that the mausoleum was erected by Noodles himself.

The locker reveals a suitcase full of money and a note stating this is a down-payment on his next job. Staying with Moe, Noodles learns of the scandals around Senator Christopher Bailey. Noodles finds Carol in a retirement home run by the Bailey Foundation. She tells him that Max manipulated them into tipping him off to the police and that Max opened fire first, wishing to die young. During the visit, Noodles spots on a memorial photograph Deborah, who has by now become a major actress. He starts to suspect a connection between Deborah and Senator Bailey. As she is performing in the city at that time, he visits her in her artist room after a performance He tells her about his invitation to a party at Bailey's mansion and challenges her to tell her about the mysterious job and down-payment as well as the identity of Senator Bailey. After initially denying any connection to him, Deborah admits to being Bailey's lover and begs Noodles to leave the city before facing hurtful revelations. Ignoring her advice, Noodles sees upon leaving Bailey's son, who looks like the young Max.

At the party Noodles meets Bailey, who turns out to be Max. Max had faked his death with the help of the police and Syndicate, stole the gang's money and reinvented himself as a self-made, Teamsters-connected politician. He also made Deborah his mistress thus robbing Noodles of everything he had. Now, faced with ruin due to the corruption scandal, Max reveals that he was the one giving the mysterious job to Noodles and that the job is for Noodles to kill him. Obstinately referring to him by his Bailey identity throughout their discussion, Noodles refuses. In his eyes, Max died many years ago. As Noodles leaves the estate, a garbage truck starts up and a man, presumably Max, walks from the entrance toward Noodles until the truck passes between them. Noodles sees the truck's auger conveyor grinding garbage, but the man is nowhere to be seen.

In the final scene of the movie, the plot goes back to the events preceding the prologue as Noodles enters the opium den, taking the drug and grinning broadly."

Jaeljojo (talk) 06:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC) Jaeljojo (talk) 06:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Not sure I will get much response here, but here is one correction as I accidentally posted a wrong version. Here is the one I suggest (shortened compared to the one posted previously so that it truly is not longer than the one presently in the article).

"The movie covers events spreading over 40 years starting in the 1920ies and is told in an Nonlinear narrative. In the prologue that is set in the 1930ies, three thugs search for a man named "Noodles". It turns out Noodles is drugging himself in an opium den with a newspaper next to him, featuring the death of bootleggers Patrick Goldberg, Philip Stein and Maximilian Bercovicz. He recalls the police removing their corpses, burnt beyond recognition. Noodles evades capture and leaves the city.

The plot turns to the 1920ies as David "Noodles" Aaronson leads a boy gang of him and his three friends "Patsy" Goldberg, "Cockeye" Stein and Dominic, committing jobs for local gangster Bugsy. They meet Max as he foils one of their robberies but has the booty stolen from him by corrupt police officer Whitey. Max joins their gang and they later manage to blackmail Whitey and get the same police protection as Bugsy.

The gang becomes successful liquor smugglers. They deposit their earnings in locker, giving the key to common friend Moe. Noodles is in love with Moe's sister, Deborah, who dreams of becoming a dancer. Deborah feels for Noodles too, but due to his socialization as a gangster, she sees no future for their love. Bugsy, now a rival, ambushes the gang and fatally shoots Dominic upon which Noodles kills Bugsy and is sentenced to prison.

Upon his release about a decade later, Noodles rejoins his gang. On a diamond heist they use jewellery employee Carol as their informant. During the robbery, she goads Noodles into hitting her, after which he rapes her, evidently her enjoying the sadistic treatment; she later becomes Max's girlfriend. Noodles realises that the heist had been commissioned by a Syndicate figure to eliminate competition. This leads to tensions between Max and Noodles who seeks independence. The gang provides protection for Teamsters' union boss O'Donnell, during the course of which they exchange newborns at a clinic, punishing the head of the police whose wife has just given birth to a boy at that clinic. This succeeds in the police withdrawing their actions against striking workers. Further tensions between Noodles and Max emerge on their future activities.

Noodles takes Deborah on a lavish date. The feelings between them are evident and they exchange intimacies, and he admits to having loved her all his life. When she reveals her plans to pursue a career in Hollywood and to leave the city, he snaps and rapes her. As she departs the next day, he attempts to catch a glance of her sitting in the train, but she avoids eye-contact.

The repeal of the Prohibition forces to gang to look for alternative activities. Max suggests a New York Federal Reserve Bank heist, which Noodles and Carol deem too risky. She convinces Noodles to inform the police about a lesser offense, hoping brief incarceration will cool off Max's ambition. After Noodles calls the police, Max knocks him out. This leads to the events shown in the prologue as upon learning that Max, Patsy, and Cockeye have been killed by the police during the heist, a guilt-ridden Noodles hides in the opium den. During his subsequent escape, he realises the locker money has disappeared.

The plot turns to the 1960ies as Noodles arrives in Manhattan for the first time since the events in the 1930ies. He has been informed on the possibility to rebury loved ones from a cemetery that is being redeveloped. Noodles understands the letter as a sign that he has been uncovered and seeks to find out who is behind this. He learns that the bodies of his three friends have been relocated to Riverdale. He visits their mausoleum in Riverdale and finds a key to a railway locker.

The locker reveals a suitcase full of money, stated to be the advance on his next job. Noodles learns of the corruption scandals around Senator Christopher Bailey and visits Carol in a retirement home run by the Bailey Foundation. She tells him that Max manipulated them into tipping him off to the police and that Max opened fire first, wishing to die young. Noodles spots on a memorial photograph Deborah, who has by now become a major actress and starts to suspect a connection between Deborah and Bailey. He tracks down Deborah and visits her. He tells her about his invitation to a party at Bailey's mansion and challenges her to tell her about the mysterious job as well as the identity of Bailey. Deborah admits to being Bailey's lover and begs Noodles to leave the city before facing hurtful revelations. Ignoring her advice, upon leaving Noodles sees Bailey's son, who looks like the young Max.

At the party, Noodles meets Bailey, who turns out to be Max who had faked his death, stole the gang's money and reinvented himself as a self-made business man. He also made Deborah his mistress thus robbing Noodles of everything he had. Now, faced with ruin due to the corruption scandal, Max reveals that he ordered the mysterious job and that the job is for Noodles to kill him. Obstinately referring to Max by his Bailey identity, Noodles refuses. In his eyes, Max died many years ago. As Noodles leaves the estate, a garbage truck passes and a man, presumably Max, walks toward Noodles until the truck passes between them. Noodles sees the truck's auger conveyor grinding garbage, but the man is nowhere to be seen.

In the final scene of the movie, the plot goes back to the events preceding the prologue as Noodles enters the opium den."

Jaeljojo (talk) 05:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC) Jaeljojo (talk) 05:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

There were multiple issues with this, including unneeded breaking of the fourth wall and grammar problems. I also removed the footnote, as it has nothing to do with the plot summary per se (it would be more appropriate to mention elsewhere in the article). I've made an effort to clean it up while respecting that the film is long and that, as such, we can take a little latitude with the word-count recommendation. DonIago (talk) 13:14, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to look at this. However, I do not understand your editing as you took out crucial bits (e.g. on the love between Noodles and Deborah) apparently with the aim to force it down as close as possible to 700 words. And as this is a plot and not a summary, certain details (like the ones mentioned in the footnote for example) are relevant for this plot I think. And we may have different views on what grammar problems are ... :-). But this should not be between you and me, so I leave to others to take forward. Jaeljojo (talk) 16:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

References