Talk:Oh Father

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Oh Father article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Oh Father has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Oh Father is part of the Like a Prayer series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
December 9, 2011	Good article nominee	Listed
January 31, 2022	Good topic candidate	Promoted

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on December 10, 2011.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the scene showing a dead woman with her lips sewn shut, in the music video for the song "Oh Father", was inspired by singer Madonna's memory of her mother's funeral?

Current status: Good article

Madonna Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Madonna, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Madonna on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MadonnaWikipedia:WikiProject MadonnaTemplate:WikiProject MadonnaMadonna articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Pop music Low‑importance

	Pop music portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pop music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to pop music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Pop musicWikipedia:WikiProject Pop musicTemplate:WikiProject Pop musicPop music articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Sia Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Sia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SiaWikipedia:WikiProject SiaTemplate:WikiProject SiaSia (musician) articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Songs

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of songs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SongsWikipedia:WikiProject SongsTemplate:WikiProject Songssong articles

Women in Music

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women in Music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women in music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women in MusicWikipedia:WikiProject Women in MusicTemplate:WikiProject Women in MusicWomen in music articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Formats and track listings

Does anyone know the run times for the songs listed in the "Formats and track listings" section? Underneath-it-All 15:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The information on the U.S. picture sleeve for "Oh Father" was incorrect. "Keep It Together" (1990) was the last U.S. 45 to be issued with a picture sleeve. Indeed, there is no known U.S. picture sleeve for "Oh Father"; it was issued with a generic white sleeve. I have corrected the information here and put the correct information with "Keep It Together." Cheemo 08:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh Father Original Picture

The original picture on the single was Madonna in a black and yellow dress with black hair and she had on black boots...I still have the single and would love to post the picture...Jdcrackers 01:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh Father single cover

I uploaded the original single cover picture today from my "Oh Father" Cassette single I bought back in 1989. If anyone disapproves of this please let me know! Jdcrackers 01:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Ohfathercover.jpeg

Image:Ohfathercover.jpeg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

girl

who is the little girl in the video Oh Father? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.215.157.99 (talk) 20:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Grammy nomination

Maybe there should be a brief mention about a Grammy nomination for Best Short Form Music video? http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19910111&slug=1260054 182.239.162.70 (talk) 15:08, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot for the link. Great help. — Legolas ^(talk2me) 15:24, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unverifiable source

I noticed that Legolas added the below-listed reference to an article supposedly by Paul Zollo called "Madonna on her turbulence". I cannot find any trace of this article, let alone written by this author:

Zollo, Paul (May 1989). "Madonna on her turbulence". SongTalk. 10 (5). Mortimer Zuckerman: 21.

I have challenged Legolas for similar unverifiable sources at Talk:Saqib Saleem and Talk:Madonna: Like an Icon/GA1, and I have seen the exact same Zollo cite at Keep It Together (Madonna song), also added by Legolas. I suspect that the pressure to advance articles to GA level has caused Legolas to falsify sources which is why I am here investigating the article. Binksternet (talk) 18:52, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's very late, but still. I don't think the source was falsified intentionally. This website states that the interview originally appeared on Songtalk and later on Zollo's book (which I've used as a source in the article). He probably adapted the details from that. Ryoga (talk) 12:58, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is this song really about Madonna's Father

What is the source that tells us that the lyrics are about Madonna's father and not Patrick Leonard's father or neither? Being that Dear Jessie is about Patrick Leonard's daughter and that Dear Jessie leads into Oh Father without gap/silence, I always figured it was about Patrick Leonard's father, not Madonna's father. There is a symmetry to the songs, the first is about being a parent the second about being a child. Moreover, Oh Father seems to be a about a physically abusive father, which I have never heard about Madonna's father. Repliedthemockturtle (talk) 00:09, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is clearly written and sourced "Generally accepted by critics and academics as a love letter to Tony Ciccone or as an indictment, Madonna never divulged her inspiration behind "Oh Father", except saying that the song was about her father and a tribute to Simon & Garfunkel, her favorite band at that time". Where are you getting the above about Patrick Leonard? Or is it your personal analysis? —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 04:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the "generally accepted" part, but is it true? I pose this as a question because I don't know the answer. I find it to be an extremely difficult topic to research on google.Patrick Leonard was the coauthor of the song. Also it seems unlikely that someone would write a song about their father being so abusive unless they truly were so abusive. I'll leave it at that. You are an excellent writer, but imo some of the article reads more like a review or "liner notes" than an encyclopedia entry. Those are my thoughts. No interest in starting a big debate. Repliedthemockturtle (talk) 21:57, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I found another book, The Billboard book of number one albums: the inside story behind pop music's blockbuster records where author Craig Rosen notes Madonna saying that "Oh Father" was inspired by both her father and her husband. And it was a statement for all kinds of paternal issues. The entry can be found in page 329, under the album Like a Prayer. I did not write this article, just checked the sources and they seem valid. By the way, it is absolutely fine that you clarified your doubt. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 07:52, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I looked up the lyrics and they are copyrighted as writer: Patrick Leonard copyright: EMI, Warner/Chappell. Madonna is not registered as a cowriter of the lyrics. [1]. Again I doubt it is about her father considering that she didn't write the lyrics. In any case, Patrick Leonard deserves a lot more credit on this page. Repliedthemockturtle (talk) 17:13, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I should remind you that your interpretations of the song and your thoughts about who it is about is not acceptable here, this is not a forum. I have already provided you sources to the contrary. If you have anything constructive about the article, please post here, else please read the guidelines at no original research. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 17:15, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, why are you getting so angry? Madonna did not write the lyrics is not my opinion; it's fact. I gave you a reference to the copyright information. Quoting someone else's opinion from a book is not a fact and is not appropriate as scholarly reference unless directly stated as "critic X opines that this song is about Y". I have a right to discuss my views on this page. That is what the talk page is for. Truth survives criticism and scrutiny. Repliedthemockturtle (talk) 19:58, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not getting angry and this is the last time I will be posting in this section. A third grade, copyviolationg, unreliable source like this has no candle to reliable sources like Billboard, Rolling Stone, authors like Lucy O'Brien, J. Randy Taraborrelli etc which is being cited here. Broadcast Music Incorporated lists both Madonna and Patrick Leonard as songwriters of the song. Every note and assertions you have made is "your" own opinion, not a reliable sources and certainly not from songwriters governing body like BMI or ASCAP. To point you out, "Quoting someone else's opinion from a book is not a fact and is not appropriate as scholarly reference unless directly stated as" → Get yourself acquainted with verifiability policy of Wikipedia, as well as reliable sources policy pointed above. Just for more proof, do your research, go to Google Books and see what each and every reference here says about the song. Good day and don't waste your or others time like this. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 08:39, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

All lyrics on Like a Prayer were written by Madonna, Leonard was responsible for the music. They both generate 50-50 ownership, but lyrically speaking, those are all her stories. Leonard himself already explained this many times throughout the years, including in the 2014 Billboard interview. Leonard worked on backing track, chord progression, etc, and Madonna came in to write the lyrics and expand the melodies. Bluesatellite (talk) 04:54, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cover arts of Oh Father

Although discogs and 45cat are user-generated and unreliable, the images prove that the artwork is meant for the French vinyl release. The US vinyl release lacks the picture sleeve but uses the generic sleeve instead. The US cassette has one. Why not use the US tape release? --George Ho (talk) 23:27, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Because we list the most popular artwork, and "Oh Father" is associated with the vinyl sleeve. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 06:22, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:LEADIMAGE doesn't encourage what is deemed the most popular artwork. Neither does MOS:IMAGE#Images and notation. At the time of the release, the cassette format grew popular, and CDs were growing at a slow rate... until the boom in the mid-1990s(?). Meanwhile, vinyls were declining. The French (current) image looks too sensual or provocative to reflect the nature of the song. I don't know why the French did that, but that's not accurate. Also, the photo is also used for Keep It Together. The US cassette with the yellow background reflects the darkness and moodiness of the song. I don't know how WP:accuracy dispute handles image disputes. EIL.com proves it. Can you let me replace the French vinyl one with US editions? If you are not convinced that the French artwork is less reflective than the US cassette, then I don't know what else to tell you. --George Ho (talk) 07:28, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I replaced promo CD of I Don't Wanna Cry with commercial tape single. Same with Too Hot (Alanis Morissette song). You did try to change the image of Vision of Love back to the European CD image, which did not represent how many copies were sold in the US. According to sales figures, the single "Vision of Love" sold more than two million copies in the US. The US audience received the tape and vinyl formats in commercial markets but missed out the CD format (unless a customer snatched the promo CD either from a radio station or a store that used the promo for demonstration and then sold it for trade without authorization from the record label). Back to "Oh Father", it fared in France not as good as in the US, but it did better in Canada. However, editors treat covers as preferences. Since we can't use more than one non-free image per previous discussions, we might end up debating over which image must be the appropriate lead image. George Ho (talk) 07:56, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

All of these statements like "The French (current) image looks too sensual or provocative to reflect the nature of the song. I don't know why the French did that, but that's not accurate. Also, the photo is also used for Keep It Together. The US cassette with the yellow background reflects the darkness and moodiness of the song" is completely your own WP:OR so please do not utter statements like that as it does not contribute to the discussion. There is no indication here that the cassette single was more important than the vinyl one whereas we have seen that the vinyl single was the most identifiable. We have the UK CD single with the blue background which we can use also in place of the french vinyl, but not cassette single. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 08:46, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Geez, I took this to the talk page because I want to avoid retaliation with you. Now I'm sensing ownership-behavior here? Anyway, there was File:OH+FATHER+UK+CD.jpg until it was replaced. If you allow me to use the UK/EU CD re-release, this indicates some mild success there more than what the original release did. However, I really hope that you approve the US tape one, which indicates how the single was released in the US, how the song was made in the US, how it was charted in the US, and how Madonna is born American... well... reading her early life... Look, if you don't allow me to use the US tape, can you let me use the UK/European CD one instead? George Ho (talk) 18:26, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Identifiable" may help readers recognize a topic. "Most identifiable," however, is not similar to WP:IUP's "increas[ing] readers' understanding of the article's subject matter." Before I added the image caption, readers have mistaken the image as a worldwide image. Even I mistook it as American vinyl picture sleeve. According to MOS:CAPTION, all images except "self-captioning" ones and unambiguous ones must have captions. Well, I wasn't aware of it until now, so there. Since readers will have become aware of the image's intent, maybe "most identifiable" is not equal to "most accurate". George Ho (talk) 22:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The UK CD can certainly be used and I do not know when it was removed. It's not upto me to approve the cassette single. It is not the identifiable image associated with this release. I am checking all the chart related websites also, including Hung medien, OCC etc, I can only see the French image or the UK image. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 09:04, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If I use both the US tape, will you try to remove the US tape then? If I try both the US tape and the UK CD to replace the French-y one, will you remove one of them? George Ho (talk) 09:10, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I will remove the US tape as I said because that is not the ones which are listed in chart directories. Again I do not own this article so don't try to make it sound like that. The UK CD can we another alternative along with the French one. I vividly remember both being used but do not recall when one was removed. Oh and @Bluesatellite: request your input also. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 09:20, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I found the source discussing audio cassette tapes in general. Per source, the cassettes predominated during the mid-1980s when vinyls diminished at the time. The other source also says that. According to sales figures, 320 million cassette singles were produced between 1992 and 1995. Look at prior years. Compare, just in case. George Ho (talk) 10:30, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

These are some invaluable sources. Let me go through them and get back to you later. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 10:33, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the first half of 1989, shipments of cassette singles increased by 500%. Tapes became more profitable than vinyls. George Ho (talk) 10:40, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go again... Is there any better job to do here in this "encyclopedia" instead of changing photo? Madonna Official Website used the current picture for "Oh Father" article. Ironically, Discogs.com (which you cited above) use the same picture for Master Release of "Oh Father". Bluesatellite (talk) 10:40, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, discogs is user-generated. Anybody can change a master release. Even I could make the tape a master release. Consensus agreed that discogs is an unreliable source but a very good external link. I don't want to accuse you of ownership for I would appear too frustrated. The official website somehow took most of the pages down. I don't know why Live Nation Merchandise, the owner or webmaster of the website, did that. This implies that it must have copied-and-pasted the image from other websites, like Wikipedia(?) or a fansite. George Ho (talk) 10:52, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No they took it down during revamping Madonna's website for the Rebel Heart era. Not because of copying content. The only content they listed was from AllMusic or Keith Cualfield which they attributed. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 10:58, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, WP:NOR doesn't extend to non-mainspaces. I can say what I want, though I need sources to verify that. George Ho (talk) 18:29, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The cover being identified at Madonna's website draws much more weight to my assertion that its the most widespread known cover artwork. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 06:23, 3 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's been one week. Comments on the sources that I provided? George Ho (talk) 01:37, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I had seen the sources, however it is not aiding me in concluding for the cover art. The official website of Madonna promotes the French cover single as Bluesatellite pointed. I would say we have to stick to that. @Bluesatellite: pinging you again if you agree with this. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 04:35, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can you just let me upload the cassette image and then put the images to FFD? Your and Bluesatellite's opinions are not enough as you are involved parties. You would remove it, but then I'll revert it back. But then that would lead to edit warring and article lockdown. Also, the official website, which took the page down, is a primary source and is poorly interpreted (WP:WPNOTRS). The defunct webpage didn't say one word about the French image itself; even it did not identify the image as part of the French release. I'm sorry, but the French image should be replaced. --George Ho (talk) 07:56, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Almost forgot; I changed the Master Release at discogs from the French release to the US cassette. George Ho (talk) 08:00, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We already have enough proof to list the cover art as it is. At this stage your continuous pursuing this agenda seems like a case of WP:POINT and WP:IDHT to me. Both me and Bluesatellite have explained why the cover art is fine. WP:DROPIT George, its really irritating to keep WP:AGF on this anymore. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 10:34, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]