Talk:Nushibi

Ilı river treaty

I changed the openning sentence in the section Historical outline which was : "After the split of the First Turkic Kaganate in 604, following the Ili river treaty,..." As seen in the cited link, Ili river treaty was in 638 and it had nothing to do with the split of the First Kaganate. In fact by 638, the Eastern wing was already under Chinese yoke and the treaty was between the tribes witin Western Wing. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

East of west of Ili River

There are two sentences which may be contradictory:In the introduction it is claimed that Nushibi (Nu-shibi, Chinese 弩失畢) was a collective name for five tribes of the right (western) wing . In the third sentence it is claimed that The Nushibi tribes occupied the lands of the Western Turkic Kaganate east of the river Ili. Ili River is in the east of Kazakhstan. If Nushibi occupied east of Ili river the rivals are even more in the east. Then who settled in the west of Ili River (İ.e., modern West Turkestan) I think one of the above sentences needs to be revised. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

After the above comment, I searched for the article history. In the original text Nushibi was at the eastern wing. On Jan. 10 of 2010 the creator has switched it. (By the way why does rigt means western ?) I 'll call the creator. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 15:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Dear Nedim, you are raising valuable questions. As far as I know, such fundamental topic as three-partite division of all Turkic states was never addressed in a monograph, although many assumptions and arguments were made and endlessly debated. WP, as a referenced source, should have a dedicated article or a dedicated section in applicable articles explaining the division, its terminology, the etymology of the terminology, and the extensions in the historical sources. Before I delve further, please confirm that you do not know of such material elsewhere in WP.

I think that the problem arises from different translation of the sources. Some translate it as right, some as west, and then historians within their works consistently use one or the other, but not both. A dedicated article, however brief, would define what is what.

From different sources, I compiled a go-by convenient table on terminology:

State organization:

Ogur	Ogur	Ethnicons	Oguz	Oguz	Ethnicons
Utra	front, opposite half, wing, ulus	Utragur > Uturgur	Tolis	eastern (left) half, wing, ulus	Tolis
Köturi	behind, westward, western half, wing, ulus	Köturgur > Kutrigur	Tardush	western (right) half, wing, ulus	Tardush, Tardu-Khan
Otra	middle half, wing, ulus	Otragur > Uturgur	Otra	middle, center	Urta, orda > horde

For Ogur (Bulgarian) terminology, A.Mukhamadiev states:

"By the way, the division of Gothic tribes during the Hunnish period into eastern and western parts could very well arise under an influence of the Huns, because both in the Eastern Europe, and in the north of China this administrative division was typical for the Huns. For example, Kotrags, Kuturgurs, Utragurs or Otragurs etc. are not the names of the Hunnish tribes, as is popularly believed, but the names of administrative regions or military formations connected with their location. For example, köturi (behind) in the Ancient Türkic language means ”to the west”, and utra (front, opposite) means ”the opposite side”, i.e. the east. Another word, otra, which subsequently transformed to urta (horde), means ”middle”. The second part of these compound terms is oguz, i.e. a union of tribes, transformed in the western Hunnish dialect to ogor."

For Oguz (Ashina Türks) terminology, L.Potapov states:

"Orhon inscriptions clearly divide the ancient Türks into Teles and Tardush, with the Teleses being in the east, and Tardushes in the west." ..."Tolis was ...a name of a geographical military-administrative division (among Türks, Tokuz-Oguzes, and then Uigurs) with a meaning "eastern half" or "eastern (left) wing". ..."Tardush of the ancient Türkic runiform inscriptions is not an ethnonym, and represents only a term meaning the western half or the western wing of the ancient Türks, nevertheless it is connected with the western Türks, whose many tribes at that time lived near Altai, especially the western Altai. Also deserves attention the fact that at the ancient Türks the western wing was called Tardush, and at the Tele tribes in their short-lived Kaganate headed by the Seyanto tribe, the western part of their possessions was called Tadush, and the eastern part was called Tulish (compare Tolis)."

The last point, how the Türks coordinated east/left and west/right is explained by their zero direction facing the midday sun, toward the south. That can be found in a number of sources, a handy citation is from H-M. Yiliuf:

"The Chinese lexeme bĕi (the earlier phonetic form preserved the Vietnamese borrowing from the South China dialects bac “north“) has a meaning of a geographical direction “north“. This lexeme formed as a result of appearing a new meaning for the word bèi “back, back side“, because of a normal prime orientation to the south. In the Mongolian and Türkic languages the name of the north is also associated with the words denoting “back side, back“: Mongol hoyt züg “back side“ > “north“, Kazakh arqa bet “north side“, Türkic arqa “back, back side“ > Kyrgyz arqalıq “north“.

A Google seaarch of the citations would bring you to the originals.

The last citation, which ties it all together, is fr. Yu.Zuev:

"In the 647, when both wings of the Western Türkic Kaganate, following the Ili treaty, became two independent states, the right wing On-shadapyt (Chinese Nu-shibi) tribes were called Ezgil (Chinese Asiji) state (Chinese go).

And

"The first description (about 634) about division of the (Western Türkic) Kaganate lands into districts states that tribes of the right wing were located west from the r. Suyab (modern r. Chu). Thus, the description refers to interfluvial of Syr-Darya and Chu; it was a territory of the ancient Kangar (Kangh) state."

At some time in the past, I noted that left/right were transposed, and corrected that. Now, The Nushibi tribes occupied the lands of the Western Turkic Kaganate east of the river Ili is incorrect, they were west of Chu, which is west of Ili, I am correcting that. I am looking forward to your feedback on structure of Turkic states. Barefact (talk) 20:21, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

• Your research on the early 7th century Central Asia is remarkable. Please continue. But I still have a question on Nushibi. In the introduction two tribes of Nushibi were associted with Turgesh. I find this assertion plausible. But on page Turgesh (to which you had also contributed ) Turgesh was defined apart of Dulo (Tou lou), the rival of Nushibi. That is further supported by on line Chines History [1] I don't have enough sources to clarify the point. Can you please be more specific ? Thanks. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:17, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

dulu != dulo

Dulo is Bulgarian ruling dynasty of Hunnic origin. Dulu are the colective name of the five tribes of the Western Turks. What is the connection between them, except that the two words ( or their modern forms) have similar sounding?

   Given the MC forms of Dulu, it is highly unlikely that it has any association with the ruling clan of the Bulğars, the Dulo
   (Доуло) of Qubrat, the founder of ―Magna Bulgaria,‖ noted in the Bulgarian Prince List. This was suggested by Artamonov,
   2002: 180-181 (notions largely prompted by L.N. Gumilëv as noted in Artamonov‘s footnotes and implied in Gumilëv,1967 ....

    All of this (association )  is highly speculative. 

file:///G:/oq-and-ogur.pdf footnote 37

Contradiction

Tongdian Vol. 199 lists five Nushibi tribes: Axijie (sub-divided into two), Geshu (again sub-divided, one Geshu sub-tribe affiliating themselves with Chuban), & Basegan. Ashide & Alishi were not included within that list, Tuqishi-Heluoshi (Turgesh-Halach) & Chumuhun were listed as Duolo tribes, and Chuban Turks were found in both Duolo (with Shunishi) & Nushipi (with Geshu). For consistency's sake, I will delete the materials which contradict primary Chinese sources. Erminwin (talk) 08:09, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Nushibi and Onoqs

Are we sure these two are the same? Beshogur (talk) 20:57, 17 September 2020 (UTC)