Talk:Novi Sad raid

References

Shouldn't there be a reference to the reprisals? (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/1944%E2%80%931945_killings_in_Ba%C4%8Dka) 78.131.104.6 (talk) 22:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/horthy/horthy.pdf
  • In 1942 raid in southern Bačka on 2011-05-25 03:17:31, Socket Error: 'A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond'
  • In 1942 raid in southern Bačka on 2011-06-04 16:21:43, Socket Error: 'A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond'

--JeffGBot (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

IP edits

OK, let try discussing these things.

IP 80.98.38.162 replaced sentence "The 1942 raid in southern Bačka was a genocide against civilians" with "The 1942 raid in southern Bačka was a antipartisan operation" - in the same time, this IP removed source that describe this event as genocide ([1]) and did not provided any source that say that it was "anti-partisan operation". Furthermore, as many as 477 Serb and Jewish children was killed in this raid, so it would be nice that IP 80.98.38.162 explain how exactly murder of children could be an "anti-partisan operation"? Also, partisans of the Šajkaška partisan detachment near Žabalj were only hiding on farm and did not performed any actions. However attack on these partisans and on innocent civilians was started by the Hungarian police on same day (January 4), which clearly prove that raid was planned much earlier and that it was not performed "In response to local partisan activity". Finally, may I suggest to IP 80.98.38.162 to behave civilized and not to insult people with "serb racist chauvinistic" (or similar) adjectives: [2] PANONIAN 11:39, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

References

Use of Horthy's memoirs as a source

I propose removing the material and citations from Horthy's memoirs, because they are not a reliable source per WP:PRIMARY a number of his claims have been discredited. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 04:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I object. Two assertions supported by Horthy's memoirs are also supported by other sources.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Of course you do. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:07, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Képíró

As one of my edits to this article has raised issues I'll explain my reasoning. The two areas of concern are Sándor Képíró's 'alleged' move to Argentina and the extreme right applauding his aquittal. The first, deals with conjecture not fact and thus should not be included. The second raises NPOV issues as it could be read as creating guilt by association when the bigots may have been applauding Zuroff's failure rather than Képíró aquittal. In general I think this material should be included, if at all, in Képíró's article, as this article is about the raids not one perpetrator. Rsloch (talk) 15:41, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Will you please answer two below questions:

1. You removed three referenced assertions without any explanation. Why did you fail to mention third referenced assertion you removed without explanation? - Source: Kepiro was found guilty of involvement twice - Removed cited assertion: Képíró has twice previously been found guilty: once by the wartime Hungarian courts, and again after the war, in 1946.

[removed inappropriate text]

Re issues:

• Argentina: Kepiro, who returned to Hungary in 1996 after decades in Argentina, was discovered living in Budapest in 2006 by Nazi-hunters with the Simon Wiesenthal Center., Kepiro, who was at the top of the Simon Wiesenthal Center's most-wanted war criminals list, returned to Hungary in 1996 after living for decades in Argentina. , The former Hungarian gendarme — who fled to Argentina after the war .
• Interpretations: Reactions to the Kepiro's release should be presented to the readers. It is up to readers to decide how they want to read the text of the article.

Please answer above questions and restore cited assertions you removed from the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:11, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The article states In September 2006, Efraim Zuroff of the Wiesenthal Center made public copies of a 1944 court verdict finding Sándor Képíró and 14 other Hungarian Army and police officers of taking part in 1942 raid in Novi Sad. In 1948, the government of Hungary retried him in absentia and sentenced him to 14 years which negates your point. As for your other points this is an article on a series of massacres in southern Bačka not Sándor Képíró.Rsloch (talk) 18:28, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't agree with you regarding three referenced assertions you removed from the article:

1. Found guilty twice: I don't think the text you quoted clearly presents the information that "Képíró has twice previously been found guilty". The court verdict (published by Zuroff) which found that Kepiro did take part in 1942 raid does not mean he was found guilty.
2. Argentina: I presented additional sources which prove that this assertion is not conjecture.
3. Public reactions are actually directly related to the series of massacres in southern Bačka not to Sándor Képíró.

Did you find my arguments convincing?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:09, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

1. Found guilty twice: Editing the article is encouraged, complaining about the removal of duplications not so much.
2. Argentina: Your references just prove that the text in question was incorrect.
3. Public reactions Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

But again I repeat this on a series of massacres in southern Bačka not Sándor Képíró. What should be concentrated and expanded on are the massacres themselves not the minutia of one man's life and trial. Rsloch (talk) 19:35, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 18:57, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

1942 raid in southern Bačka → Novi Sad raid – As per wp:COMMONNAME, the article should be titled by it's most common name, that is "Novi Sad raid". "Novi Sad raid" returns 43 results on Google Books [3], while "raid in southern Bačka" returns only one, this article [4]. Vanjagenije (talk) 15:25, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support For the record, I did the Google Books search myself using the WP-recommended search string and got 18 hits, of which quite a few are dubious or relate to works of fiction. However, the current title appears to only be a descriptive title (certainly not a common name), and at least there are several reliable academic sources for the proposed title. On that basis I think you could be bold and move it. I would note, however, that the January 1942 killings occurred not just in Novi Sad, but also in Bečej and Srbobran. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The victims included

The several options should be integrated.Xx236 (talk) 07:36, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Rummel 1998

This is a citation, but has no reference against it, so is impossible to verify. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:40, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Replacement of the memorial plaque

In 2022 the plaque commemorating the massacre was replaced, changing the derogatory term "Cigani" (Gypsies) to "Roma".[5] - Mike Rosoft (talk) 09:04, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Crimes against humanity category removal

Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)