Talk:Northern campaign (Irish Republican Army)

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Untitled

Added what Bowyer Bell has to say about the Northern Campaign. I know there is at least one other history out there that deals with it- attempting to get access to that book. Please feel free to correct spelling/formatting/typos and any details Bowyer Bell gives in his great book (well worth a read).

BTW, please correct the reference to "CS." which I didn't have time to look up, PLUS I also left in the profanity of "bastards" in the Behan quote as it is possibly permissable in the context of quotation. Please do NOT spam my talk page with wiki-rules & regs if it isn't. Wikistalking is against the rules.

The other thing worth mentioning is that all the details on IRA Northern / Eastern / Western Command etc. appear to be as yet uncreated- if you're feeling energetic, please create the redirects and fill in the details. Maybe someone with the knowledge as yet to edit on wikipedia will fill them in?

Nice to see this gaping hole in the history of the IRA finally filled (on wikipedia)!

Fluffy999 21:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to mention, I will be adding in the dates of all IRA activity 1942-1945 (as recorded by the Times of London next week. Soon as I get access to the newspapers, I don't think Bowyer Bells description of "60 incidents" is doing the bhoys justice.

Fluffy999 01:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing showing in the papers- checked them today, maybe Bowyer Bell was being generous? There are a lot of arms seizures reported but few attacks. I did get the statement issued at the start of the campaign though- now included, but the 1945 statement didnt appear in the Irish Times, London Times or Belfast Irish News, checked all around the time too as the 10th was a Saturday- guess they had more important things to report on. Fluffy999 13:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will not be responding to messages left on my talkpage or on pages for articles I have worked on. Will no longer be contributing to wikipedia. Thank you. Fluffy999 13:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CS = chief of staff

CS = chief of staff. See List of IRA Chiefs of Staff for details.--Damac 20:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Patrick Dermody

Anybody know any more about him? I see he was killed by An Garda Síochána during a gun battle at a wedding in Cavan. The wedding was his sister's and her son was no less than Gerry Tuite. I'm not sure at all if he was related to Matt Tuite of Julianstown in Meath, but Matt Tuite would most probably have been connected with Patrick Dermody as both of them were IRA men in the 1940s. 86.42.98.32 (talk) 11:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Against NI

What does this mean, Mabuska? If you mean against the polity, why not say so? What's wrong with saying 'in' Northern Ireland? Gob Lofa (talk) 21:39, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Plain enough what it means. You are the only editor who seems to find long established stable wording to be wrong. My edit summary has made it clear what it means. There is a stark difference between "in" and "against" Northern Ireland. The IRA since partition have waged war against Northern Ireland and its very existence, and the scope of every operation has never been solely "in" Northern Ireland, with the Free State/Republic used frequently as a base/launchpad/escape route etc. Even the article lists incidents that occurred down south. So "in" is bollocks". Mabuska ^(talk) 17:10, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a fan of your colloquialism; I hope you're not trying to bait me. Saying 'against' NI gives the impression that all attacks were launched from the ROI; that's not the case. Gob Lofa (talk) 10:23, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you can prove that highly inaccurate assertion be my guest, otherwise your case has no legs to stand on. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:27, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Flags in infobox

The use of the Irish tricolour in the infobox is potentially confusing as it stands, as it is used to represent belligerents on both sides (the Irish state & the Gardai on one side, the IRA on the other). The use of the tricolour to represent the IRA in particular is also unverified by sources, and as such should probably be removed. For now, I will tag as citation required. Miles Creagh (talk) 20:06, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I don't think any flags should be in the infobox per MOSFLAG, but I keep being over ruled, Flag of Ireland use was discussed in 2009, and again in 2012 with no consensus to remove. Mo ainm~Talk 08:35, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the links to the prior discussions, which tend to confirm my view that flag icons for the IRA, as an extra-state actor, should not link to the article for the southern Irish state. Miles Creagh (talk) 16:30, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

True as the flag pre dates the formation of the state. Mo ainm~Talk 21:15, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it does. Still not sure that its use to represent the IRA is adequately sourced here, however. Miles Creagh (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Irish tricolour has been the de facto flag of Irish republicanism inspired by the 1916 proclaimation, of which the IRA is. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:50, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've heard that said. I'm just not seeing the reliable sources supporting it in the article at the moment. Miles Creagh (talk) 01:38, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would gladly remove them all they add nothing to the article IMO. But MILHIST have a thing for flags in infoboxes and i've lost my fight to have them all removed. Mo ainm~Talk 12:05, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nazi Germany

I have removed Nazi Germany from the Belligerents section, first source used is a self published website which fails as a reliable source and the second source is about IRA in America and nothing at all to do with the Northern Campaign, Sean Russell gets a mention but that's about as far as it goes and doesn't in any way back up the claim it is being used for. Mo ainm~Talk 09:01, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I concur as anything I can find refers to the Nazi link before the date this campaign started, though I find the last couple of sentences of this piece quite relevant to Wikipedia [1] Mabuska ^(talk) 13:06, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clean up

I have just performed a mass clean up of the article to remove the unsourced POV driven and largely irrelevant commentary and waffle that has inflicted this article. Yeah its easy to tag problems, all of which here have been tagged for ages, but obviously unless someone does something the instigators or defenders of the bias won't fix the issues.

Also in regards to infobox flags... Mo ainm, the Ulster Banner was the flag of Northern Ireland at this time so it is the relevant flag to use. Also it was the NI government who took action not the UK PM so I removed the silly mention to Churchill. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:42, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A few bits have been retained from what was removed as they are sourced and relevant, or relevant but need sourcing. The chronology seriously needs sourcing or the most of it will be removed soon on the grounds of sourceless. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:48, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

UB was flag from 53-72 Mo ainm~Talk 12:06, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Then so be it. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:01, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Remind me, when and how did the tricolor become the flag of the 1940s IRA? Miles Creagh (talk) 14:45, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Flag never stopped being used by them since their original foundation. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:57, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But they were a different organisation in the 1940s, no? Miles Creagh (talk) 17:39, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are numerous incarnations of the IRA, most claim direct links back. Mo ainm~Talk 22:07, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Miles Creagh, each incarnation of the IRA claims to be the direct continuation of the original IRA and 1916 ideals. Just like the UVF claim to be a direct continuation of the original UVF. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:36, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I question how the tricolour can be used to represent the 1940s incarnation of the IRA, considering that the tricolour had by then been adopted as the flag of the southern state.Miles Creagh (talk) 01:07, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Because, as was quite clear from the souths celebration of 1916, both see the Easter Rising and the declaration (and along with it, the flag) as the foundation stone of their cause/state. Heck the Irish Defense Forces were formed from the IRA. All shades of the same colour. Mabuska ^(talk) 01:19, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but by the 1940s the tricolour had become the legal, national flag of the southern state. Miles Creagh (talk) 16:24, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And? Mabuska ^(talk) 12:37, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And not the legal flag of the IRA. Miles Creagh (talk) 21:19, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What legislation are you quoting that states that the use of the flag is illegal? Mo ainm~Talk 22:26, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Constitution of Ireland, Article 7: "The national flag is the tricolour of green, white and orange". Miles Creagh (talk) 00:00, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Irish government do not own the rights to the flag. They did not invent it so just because they adopt the flag as that of their state doesn't mean others can't have it as there own, and the IRA have had it longer than the Republic. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:00, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the original IRA was in the government of the southern state by the 1940s. And the part that wasn't regarded themselves (ludicrously) as the real government of Ireland. Miles Creagh (talk) 20:21, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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