Talk:North Korea/Archive 7

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Oppression

• In North Korea, listening to South Korean radio is regarded as betrayal of the regime for which the accused and all his family members are imprisoned and severely punished. [1]

Wikipedia is not a forum. If you have evidence for this, add it to the article. If it's just your opinion, then this is the wrong place to discuss it. And please sign your username or IP with four tildes - I hate anonymous contributions. Walton monarchist89 14:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

BIAS!!!!!!

Wow I know that North Korea has a highly authoritarian regime but this article particularly sounds so extermely biased and westernized I am amazed!!!! It sounds like George W. Bush wrote it!! The entire intro is basically saying North Korea has a decadent corrupt regime and needs to be westernized and that the country is a danger!!!! This is a country what about it's geography or some historcial context in intro rather than again and again stating the repression?? Ernst Stavro Blofeld 14:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

There's plenty of information about the geography etc. if you read the whole article. I don't think it's particularly biased either; where does it say anything about a decadent corrupt regime? Please take the time to read the article carefully before posting your criticisms. Walton monarchist89 14:33, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds more like a philosphical debate. Does reality have an inherant bias? The facts are that North Korea faces many very harsh accusations. But since North Korea doesn't officially recognize any criticsm, does that mean that everything said is mere conjecture? (directedition)

North Korea opressional regime has nothing to do with George W. Bush, but with reality. It has concentration camps according to various sources, including a CNN documentary. 26 Dec 2006

I don't really think the bias matters because no one in North Korea is going to see this. 71.68.15.163 19:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I lol'd. Specusci 16:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not one believes the article to be biased, it does matter even if no one in North Korea. That's akin to saying that it wouldn't matter if the article on the United States were biased if it were unlikely that anyone in the US would read it. en.wikipedia articles are written to inform people who read English throughout the world. Also, it's possible, though unlikely, that the privileged few in North Korea who have access to the Internet, namely certain government officials, might see it. 70.91.38.73 23:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC) (Mike 1981)

With regards to this text being biased I am inclined to agree, but not for any of the reasons presented above. Rather I am surprised that none of the very well-documented examples of the exxentric and frankly stark raving mad behavior of the ruling despot of this particular country have found their way into the narrative. One could for instance focus on his previous forays into the entertainment industry, in which he (the little dictator) believed himself to be a gifted director ... however not more gifted than he had to kidnap a japanese director and his actress wife to bolster his ability to record a movie. The kidnapping business is nothing new to this regime however as they have previously kidnapped both south korean as well as japanese citizens in an utterly moronic effort to create agents for re-introduction into their respective native countries. I could go on, but my point here is that none of he more extravagent exxesses of this particular regime have made it into the main header. None of this is classified, none of it is lies and none of it are actually very hard to document if one has the time - which i have not. We as people interested in Wikiipedia should be united by one thing, namely the need for and a lust for free speech with all the good and bad things it entails. For this reason alone the North korean regime should be crucified by truth - this effort seems to be somewhat impeded by petty bickering and by the concerted effort of those who seem to be harboring warm feelings for the last of the great fascist dictatorships (and I use those words deliberately). Sempergladio 18:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Flag and Coat of Arms label

The label under the flag reads [[Flag of {{{common_name}}}|Flag]] and the coat of arms has the same problem. I tried to change it but it seems to be part of the template. Does anyone know how to fix this? sijarvis 10:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

No one has said anything but it seems to have been fixed, thanks whoever it was. sijarvis 13:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Why not DPRK?

The state's name is DPRK, not North Korea. "North Korea" is a controversial word like Ostdeutschland.Everton 10:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It is more commonly known as "North Korea" among English-speaking people, so maybe that's why. (Stefan2 10:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC))

Well http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostdeutschland is a German term... that the German speakers themselves had no problem making an article out of... so isn't it a bad example?--Greasysteve13 03:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

If you read earlier sections of this talk page, this debate has already taken place twice, with very little productive result. Since the intro uses both names, and "DPRK" redirects to this page anyway, I don't think it really matters. Walton monarchist89 14:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah.--Greasysteve13 06:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I noticed some examples vandalism on this page. I reverted one version where it said things such as "Stupid DPRK" and manually removed the text "(a g@y)" from the name of the Chairman of the National Defence Commissioner. I couldn't find the version where the text was added, though, so maybe it's better if someone checks the whole text for other, similar, errors. (Stefan2 10:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC))

Sadly, politically-motivated vandalism is always a huge problem on these kind of controversial pages. I will keep checking the article text for any deliberate errors. Walton monarchist89 09:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Do not vandalize, it stops others from helping with the project, it interferes with the process.--Afa86 01:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

--The problem is that politically motivated people will consider even factual edits not in their favor vandalism and flag as such. I'm not opposed to the occasional "obvious joke" vandalism; it's usually amusing and easy to catch and revert. The more insideous ones are the subtle factual "errors". And it's not like admins are exactly neutral about.... anything, really. Magicflyinlemur 10:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone switched the letters r and l throughout the article. Please revert. The Coldwood 04:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

'Pre-' Introduction

Surely the 1st paragraph, 3rd sentence ("North Korea is often referred to by global media sources as Stalinist, isolationist, and authoritarian.") and 2nd paragraph about the US professor's quote is more apt for the section where it talks about politics later on. Otherwise the (pre-)intro is hardly a 'summary', and provides so much opinion that one cannot read the rest of the article without a biased mindset from the start. Jsw663 14:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Reuben: This is NOT to do with anything about the 'archived straw poll'. This is about content at present. Please actually READ what you're deleting before you do it. Jsw663 15:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

From the diff of the edit in question, you can see that the target was in fact a stray new vote in the archived straw poll section. But I goofed this time, and unintentionally removed some other edits along with it. I have restored the comments that were affected. Thanks for pointing out my error. --Reuben 16:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Seismic Activity Contradiction

This is tough since I've seen reports that the seismic activity magnitude was 3.6 and others that say that it was 4.2. The article states both in two different paragraphs. Can someone verify and correct? --Damae 13:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The numbers are from different sources. 4.2 is the number reported by the USGS; South Korean scientists reported 3.58. See OhMyNews and Janes, also USGS report. -- Visviva 14:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. I've therefore removed the contradict tag. Walton monarchist89 14:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Rogue state, Axis of Evil.

It appears certain people do not want to mention the fact that North Korea is a rogue state, and part of the Axis of evil in the article. Could you please explain why this information should not be mentioned. Thanks? Cerebral Warrior 10:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Axis of evil? Rogue state? Have you thought about US presidency? :) Those terms are just words used by Bush to describe the US position on North Korea, and as an encyclopedia information is presented objectively here, "axis of evil" and "rogue state" definitely do not qualify, what we do instead is present a detailed background of the North's government and political situation and leave our readers to form their own conclusions. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 07:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

What does the US have to do with this? North Korea is a rogue, Axis of Evil state, as can be seen here. Cerebral Warrior 07:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that information is adequately covered in the Foreign relations section; in any event, such specific characterizations of the state probably don't belong in the lead paragraph. Cheers, -- Visviva 10:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed the term Axis of Evil is American political terminology - and although there is no disputing the facts, this is the opinion of one nation. Please remember that Encyclopedias should be objective - terminlogy such as "rogue state" are subjective. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.118.6.245 (talk • contribs) 09:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Although I'm inclined to describe it as a rogue state myself, in the interests of NPOV we have to present all sides of the argument. Walton monarchist89 09:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

This description was reinserted in the lead; I've removed it. "Rogue state" is an undefined term, and "axis of evil" is a characterization used by one country. They are not neutral descriptors. A properly referenced statement to the effect that the USA has declared NK part of the axis of evil, or that the USA considers NK to be a rogue state, would be fine. But we can't categorically state in the lead that this is what NK is. Eron 15:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

True that, the view of the US is not exactly cannonical. For example if Pakistan thought that the US is part of an Axis of Evil, would you place that in the US page?. We must treat this article like if it was from your own country, its the only wat to achieve NPOV.

Yeah but it should be at least meantioned at a foregin relations part of the article. I mean if Pakistan accused USA of being an axis of evil it would surely be in there at some point. If some individual says something it's uninteresting, however if the man who decided where the country stands says so it's of relevance.

Mass Line (Mass Games?) and Intellectuals

The last of the opening paragraphs mentions ways in which North Korea differs from superficially similar states, but the main article never goes into detail. Can someone who knows about this provide some? Maybe in an Ideology section? DavidBofinger 00:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Huh, that's funny. The Wikipedia seems to have a healthy population of Communists, but there is no article on the mass line? Well, IIRC, the mass line goes like this: Marx said that the revolution would be fought by the proletariat. In Russia, there was no real proletariat, so Lenin proposed a mass line: proletariat + peasants + intellectuals. Kim il-Sung (the father) added soldiers to this. At least that's what my memory is reporting... crazyeddie 00:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

See the article on Juche. Walton monarchist89 10:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Some oddities

Some things I noticed, doing a mass diff over the last few days:

although all outside experts view the nation as a totalitarian, single-party dictatorship under the absolute control of Kim Jong-il–"a living, breathing Stalinist" state.

The "all outside experts..." phrase does not appear in the source. And, given some of the moshing around on this page, I seriously doubt that "all outside experts" agree on any thing. Should we do someting about this language, or just wait for one of the pro-NKs to throw a winger?

Aircraft holdings include 190 MiG-21s, 30 MiG-29s, 60 MiG-23s, 40 Q-5 Fantans, plus an additional 250 or so of older MiG-19s, MiG-17s and Su-7s. Since the 1980s, the air force has expanded its inventory of helicopters from 40 to 275.

As far as I can tell from the source [2], that should be 150 MiG-21s. Am I reading the source wrong?

We also need a source for Amnesty International and North American Free Speech Association statement in Human Rights section. crazyeddie 00:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

North Korea 31st / 38th Parallel

History section of "North Korea" references the 31st Parallel incorrectly, although link is properly provided to 38th Parallel.

Protection of Page in the wake of atomic testing?

Any chance of this page being protected/semi protected?

As much as I enjoy a good chuckle, "OMG KOREA HAS T3H NUKEZORZ, KIM JONG ILL IS INSANE" doesn't quite grab me as encyclopedic.203.129.42.54 02:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

This article is on my watch list. There was a flurry of extra vandalism right after the test but it seems to be waning. I doubt the admins would go for SP status as the article isn't markedly vandal-prone relative to other articles on controversial topics. Even non-controversial articles such as The Beatles are vandalized about as much as this one. Sure, vandalism is an annoyance, but the more serious damage to this article is done when someone comes in determined to push a POV. Raymond Arritt 02:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Nonetheless, I think vandalism is a problem, particularly viz-a-viz recent nuclear developments. The problem with vandalism on this page, compared to The Beatles, is that almost all of it is politically motivated - and much of it is more subtle than OMG KOREA HAS T3H NUKEZORZ, KIM JONG ILL IS INSANE. Walton monarchist89 11:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

12 japanese girls abducted by North Korea and used as slaves to teach North Korean spys how to act

Again, 12 japanese girls abducted by North Korea and used as slaves to teach North Korean spys how to act. This is ALL OVER the news right now, if we don't edit this in. I will tomorrow morning. 71.236.225.50 05:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I haven't heard anything about this. If you add it to the article, make sure you provide adequate and specific citations. Walton monarchist89 10:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, I see the guy hasn't put it up there, or if he has, it's been removed. It's been mentioned in quite a few publications over the years and former Japanese PM Koizumi Junichiro went to NK to discuss the matter, among others. In fact, Charles Robert Jenkins, a US Army deserter who fled to NK to avoid being deployed to Vietnam, married a captured Japanese woman. So, I mean, the cases are documented, it's just a matter of citing them. I'll look into maybe adding it later. Shadowrun 22:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

www.pyang.su

Has anyone noticed this website, which was just added to the "websites about North Korea" section? It seems to only have been around for a few weeks, and looks to me like it might actually be an amazingly elaborate propaganda site, or maybe some sort of joke. Either way, the link should be reclassified or removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Krutherford43 (talk • contribs)

This link was added by an IP that has been frequently blocked for vandalism. I've removed the link. (By the way please sign your comments by putting four tildes at the end, like this: ~~~~. Thanks and welcome to Wikipedia!) Raymond Arritt 02:29, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a joke. --Reuben 05:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

A Whois on the domain does return a contact with an 850 area code (This was recently changed to the 850 number from a number with an Edmonton area code) however--although admittedly inconclusive--a whois on the listed nameserver(s) displays a Canadian address. The webmaster suggests in the 'ask a Korean' section that he submits received questions to Pyongyang by fax but having tried faxing Pyongyang myself from Canada (same city as listed in the whois on the domain's nameserver); I found it impossible to get a clear enough line to successfully transmit. kev. 23:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Scary site, apart from the "Ask a Korean" section (in wich aparently true letters are sent, yet dubious koreans reply), there is another, scarier section called "News", in wich you can see who ranks on the music chart (LaToya Jackson has been number 1 for weeks) and news about "hordes of south koreans fleeing to North Koreans" (wasnt it the other way around?) and my personal favorite, the gripping tale of Dilara Alisultan, a girl who was kidnapped by orders of Bush himself to be raped in the senate, and how she sent a letter to the dear leader who sent special operation squads to america to save her. So, propaganda?... nah, how could you even think that.

Motto

Does anyone have a reference for the motto? A Google search only yields Wikipedia mirrors. Pruneautalk 19:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I think with this site, it's the motto of The People's Republic of Taepodong II one of the three nations of North Korea and classified by the UN as psychotic dictatorship see [29] for details,

Although here [30] It says that's the motto for the country

And this could be the convincing one at transcripts from CNN. It was said by Phillip Doyle former assistant to the secretary of Defense. [31]--JForget 23:48, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The first website is that of a Role Playing Game; I doubt that the UN classifies any country as a "psychotic dictatorship". The second website clearly states that information was taken from Wikipedia. In the third website, Philip Coyle doesn't say anything about the motto; the journalist does, and I am not sure that qualifies as a reliable source. Pruneautalk 09:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Kim Jong Il and Madeleine Albright

Forgive my lack of Wikipedia techno-savvy, but what the heck is up with this picture? Is that Wil Wheaton? The high-res version used in the article is unaltered, at least. Hiddekel 01:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandal alert!

" an East Asian country situated on the northern half of the Korean Peninsula run by a reportedly exiled transgendered mentally-challenged extra-terrestrial going by the name of Kim Jong-Il, who formerly played on Saturday Night Live the character of "Pat," a sexually ambiguous and androgynous individual. "

That sounds funny, but does not belong here. Should be protected! 195.70.48.242 10:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

That (and some other recent vandalism) is taken care of; vandalism has been very intense here lately. Would not object to semi-protection here. -- Visviva 11:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we ought to link here and syphon off some of the jokers? crazyeddie 13:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

the vandal is back! the whole page is full of this junk now, including the image subtexts --Maximilian77 16:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, the level of vandalism has become too hard to keep up with and the article needs to be semi-protected. Will request. Raymond Arritt 17:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. Raymond Arritt 03:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Description of Government

If the DPRK is a Communist-led state, why are some people poorer than others? An extremist dictatorship like that of Kim, is no better than fascism. SENSAY911 14:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Kim is a rogue, Axis of Evil dictator. Cerebral Warrior 14:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Nort Korea give food about 200 - 300 mln. dol. but it is about 0.5 - 0.75 pesent his economi or 10 - 15 dol. one people. T4 06:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

None of this is relevant. Wikipedia is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. Please restrict your comments to those relating to the article itself. Walton monarchist89 09:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's relevant. Some people believe that North Korea is not Communist-led, and might want to change the article accordingly. I can't see how this has nothing to do with the article...Specusci 18:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Kim Yong Il's Title

It's really unnecessary to have all that information about how people in different languages call him. I think it ought to be cut.

No, it's not irrelevant. The title of Kim Jong Il is a matter of controversy, and is an immensely important part of DPRK political life (owing to the cult of personality). The fact is, everything about DPRK is so controversial at present that any changes to this page, however trivial, could be viewed as politically motivated. So I'd advise you not to cut any of it. Walton monarchist89 10:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Semiprotected status

Earlier, it was agreed that this page should be semiprotected, due to the high levels of politically motivated vandalism - but it doesn't seem to have been given semiprotected status yet. I strongly feel that this page should be semiprotected. Walton monarchist89 10:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

It had been semi-protected for about 12 days, but was unprotected today. See here. Shall we request re-protection? -- Visviva 13:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Note: In the approximately 12 hours since un-protection, there have been three cases of clear vandalism by anons or new users, and one anon test. If this keeps up, which it surely will, we're looking at about 6 rvv's per day; that's not impossible to handle, but it's more than enough to get in the way. I've got plenty of other pages to patrol for vandalism, so I myself am leaning towards requesting re-protection. -- Visviva 13:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Do note that when I unprotected the page, the page was not linked off the main page. Since then it's been linked back on the main page again. I don't believe 6 reverts on one page per day is beyond Wikipedia's capabilities, and Wikipedia should aim to minimize the number of protected pages. However, I'm not entirely opposed to re-protection, as long as someone remembers to un-protect it when vandalism subsides. theProject 16:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Visviva and strongly request re-protection. Walton monarchist89 11:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

North-South relations

I changed some of the information that made North and South Korea sound like they where getting better in their relations. Perhaps this is true on part of the government, but the citizens of both nations despise each other. Two south korean friends of mine use "north korean" as an insult not all that dissimilar from english phrases like "fag".

~Specusci

Fair enough, but bear in mind that you need to provide citations for any information that you add to the articles. By the way, to sign your username, use four tildes: ~~~~ Walton monarchist89 11:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

And extraordinary claims require extraordinary references. My own experience suggests that your friends are far from representative of the South Korean people. -- Visviva 13:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry you feel that way, Visviva, but these friends have only been living outside of South Korea for about a year now. They're more or less average koreans. But I will look for references, as I agree that the opinion of a friend is not substantial enough. Specusci 19:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)Specusci

Population

Very little information comes in and goes out of Nort-Korea. How can we know that there is a population of 23 millions? I think it maight be a some smaller amount.

It looks like the source for the 23 million+ figure is the CIA World Factbook. How they got the information is anybody's guess - they could tell us, but then they'd have to kill us. So the short answer is that we don't know. Of course, even in this country (the USA), the census isn't perfect, so our estimate of our population is bound to be off a bit. Since the figure is properly sourced, that's good enough for the Wikipedia. Unless you've got a hotline to God or something, you aren't likely to get a more accurate fix. crazyeddie

Politics

I know that not much of what we might consider politics goes on in NK, but still, a section on "government and politics", such as it is, wouldn't be amiss, right? Biruitorul 08:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

True - every other country has one. I'm going to start work on a government and politics section. Walton monarchist89 11:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I've done it. There is also a full article series at Politics of North Korea, which I added a link to. Walton monarchist89 11:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. Thank you very much. Biruitorul 01:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

State of War

Just wanted to let you all know I removed a short clause stating the United States and North Korea are technically still at war, since a peace treaty was never signed. If we're going to refer to technicalities, North Korea and the United States were technically never at war to begin with. There was a citation for the statement which seemed relevant to the article as a whole, but not to that statement specifically; I removed it as well. Ogthor 03:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

An interesting point. North and South Korea are still at war -- or at least that's the prevailing understanding -- so I expect that's the source of the mistake. -- Visviva 10:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's supposed to be North and South Korea that are still locked in a state of war, not North Korea and the United States. It could have even been vandalism? Specusci 18:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The war was between the DPRK and the UN, no? The negotiations were *not* between the DPRK and the ROK (Syngman Rhee, then president of the ROK, wanted to continue the war, but the US refused), but between the DPRK and the US (the US as representatives of the UN). So yes, the US and DPRK are still at war. (Stat)

Religion

I am fairly certain that North Korea is NOT officially atheiest. Crocodilicus 21:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The separate article Religion in North Korea says ever since the rise of communism, free religious activities no longer exist as the government sponsors religious groups only to create an illusion of religious freedom, with a citation. This seems more precise to me than 'officially atheist' so I will rewrite the main article to reflect that. Walton monarchist89 10:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it's just a secular nation? I don't think there would be any officially atheist nations, would there? Specusci 16:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Albania under Enver Hoxha declared itself an atheist state. I don't know of any others. --Reuben 19:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

But technically the North is still at war with the South and the United Nations!

Er, yes. But how is that relevant? Anyway please sign your comments. Walton monarchist89 10:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Only registered users can edit...for now

I added the tag to block unregistered users to edit this article. It appears that vandalism is a problem here, along with other similar articles, ie. Middle East, Germany... Only neutral facts please. --Loco123 22:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Except that the article is not presently protected. Hence the tag you added was inaccurate. Adding that specific tag to an article does not actually protect it. That must be done seperately by an administrator. -- malo (tlk) (cntrbtns) 07:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

While wikipedia is editable by any when unprotected, normal users do not have the power to lock articles. That would just cause chaos with people vandalizing the articles and then locking all other users out so that the vandlism stays...only administrators can lock or add certain tags.Specusci 15:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The page urgently needs to be semiprotected. Walton monarchist89 17:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

North Korea is a Prison

North Korea is essentially a prison of 23 million people. Forget NPOV for this article, because North Korea does not care about NPOV in anything. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.96.153.247 (talk) 04:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

Yeah! Let's be as bad as them! Really... User:Green Fairy^{t c} 15:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Er...that's nice to know, but a fourth grader can't use that for his project.

What if within the preceding month, some sort of uprising occured and North Korea became a sane democracy? NPOV should always be maintained. Just because you as an individual have a different POV doesn't mean that everyone else has to change things to suit your view of the world. How about, be a little less closed-minded and rise above the people you despise so much? Specusci 16:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)