Talk:North American Union/Archive 7

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[1] http://www.habeascorpuscanada.com/grounds.html [2] http://nauresistance.org/ [3] http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?gid=116430275057791 (Videos, Photos, Discussions) [4] http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?gid=133732079978325 [5] http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14965 [6] http://www.newswithviews.com/iserbyt/iserbyt36.htm [7] http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6539 [8] http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/NAUArticles.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.65.28 (talk) 07:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

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Your naivete is on full display, Mr. Anonymous. According to these people, the NAU would be a done deal by 2010. Hey... that's now! Guess it was bullshit after all, eh? But on a more serious note, these sources you cite typically see ANY cooperation between governments and agencies as "evidence" of a NAU in the works. But this sort of stuff is routine government-to-government stuff. If we are talking about enacting a NAU-type body, we'd have to see a lot more than simple cooperation and coordination, we'd have to see a TREATY signed, we'd need an over-arching coordinating body, we'd need a set of standard laws for adherence. So, where are all these things? Don't waste your time looking, these things do not exist. Take a look at the European Union page to get an idea of the complexity involved in creating a body of this scope. This, simply put, could not be enacted behind closed doors. There is simply no way. And anyone who tells you otherwise is full of shit. For example, on the Treaty alone, depending on the country, this would have to be a very public undertaking. The Senate in the United States would require a vote on this, after a long debate - like with NAFTA. Seeing you apparently believe it can be enacted notwithstanding the above, shows to me you are out of your depth on this subject and therefore more credulous when people tell you a line.

This is not to say that certain influential groups would love to see a NAU-type body enacted. But if there was ever a moment where Canada Mexico and the United States would do this, it has long passed as the political situation in the USA is such that it is currently inconceivable such a body could be negotiated. Canada Jack (talk) 14:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

So, in a 2000 Brooking Institute, we find this phrase in describing Fox: "For example, his futurescape is already in Europe, where the European Union's elimination of barriers allows EU citizens freedom of movement among the member states. In Mr. Fox's view, a North American union similar to the EU would allow for such freedom."

What Devil is trying to claim is this is an example of what "some in the media" were calling Fox's proposal, i.e., the North American Union. The linked article, however, does not say this. It calls Fox's proposal NOTHING, merely DESCRIBING it is a "union" along the lines of the EU. If it was an example of the "media calling this a NAU," it would be worded "HIS North American Union," or, at a minimum, "a North American Union." The "Union," of course, being upper case to indicate a proper noun, NOT the adjective clause we have in the quote.

When we look at Pat Buchanan in 2003, we see that he, indeed, is not simply describing Fox's proposal as akin to the EU, a similar "union," but as a PROPOSAL called the "North American Union." And that is the distinction here.

So, the ONLY person so far calling the "proposal" (if we can so grandiose to call it that) the NAU is Pat Buchanan... who didn't even propose it! Which underlines what others have said - critics came up with this idea by name, not those who supposedly proposed it. Canada Jack (talk) 00:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Do you really not know how absurd that argument is man? Regardless of whether he was merely being descriptive or titling it he still called it a North American union. He used that exact term to refer to it. So do you want it to say "this proposal for a 'North American Union' or 'North American union', as some in the media called it" instead?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:33, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Devil. I can't believe you are claiming the above. It's the same distinction between talking about "these united states are declaring independence" and "the United States declared independence." If you don't understand the difference, you have absolutely no business inserting text onto this page. This truly has to top the list of inane contributions to this page from you. Wow.

But, instead of belabouring a point you clearly don't understand, how about simply stating something like... "by 2003, critics like Pat Buchanan were describing Fox's proposals as a "North American Union," and critiquing it..." Your source certainly says as much. You may have identified the first instance this term appears in print as a proper noun (unless Buchanan later rewrote the article to make it more relevant to the later critiques he and others had on the NAU). Canada Jack (talk) 13:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

It is clearly not the same thing. This article, as much as you may hate it, is not about something narrow and specific, but a broad concept. Both articles clearly reference the concept, both using the exact same words for the concept, and as such the phrase I inserted is perfectly legitimate.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:31, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Devil, whatever you want to call it, it is plain as day that the 2000 article isn't talking about a SPECIFIC concept, just a general idea of union, as Fox had floated, which is already in the article. However, in contrast, Buchanan IS talking about something specific, called the North American Union. The FACT that no one actually had a proposal out there called that is not germane - in that case - as he identifies it. However, the 2000 article does not identify a specific concept. It DESCRIBES Fox's proposal in terms that happen to use the words "North American" and "union," as it compares it to the EU. It could just as easily - as many others at the time did - describe it as a "union" or "confederation" of "Mexico, Canada and the USA." This is no mere case of semantics.

Your main objection has always been that the specific NAU concept has been around for many years. But you have never found a citation which states as much. Finding someone who describes a concept in that manner is not the same as finding someone who NAMES the concept. The 2000 article DESCRIBES a similar concept; the Buchanan article NAMES it. It's an important and crucial distinction. Canada Jack (talk) 15:47, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

It has been around for years, however, you refuse to accept anything that does not explicitly use the term North American Union and apparently that includes capitalizing the word "union" despite the fact it is all referring to the same thing. I mean, both articles are referring to the exact same thing (Fox's comments in 2000) and using the exact same words, but you are imposing some baseless standard that unless it refers to the concept in the exact manner you demand it is not the same.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

This is more than a little ridiculous, Devil. I wrote most of the material on the pre-SPP concepts for integration. I ALSO wrote the initial material on Fox proposing something akin to the EU. NONE of this stuff is new - what, however, you tried to do was suggested that there was a PROPOSAL called the North American Union. Your sources simply don't back you up on this. That's merely what I am saying. The 2000 article DESCRIBES proposals along those lines from Fox - which is, in terms of the page, old news. We KNOW Fox wanted - wants - a NAU, and has wanted it from Day 1. But he didn't call his proposals that until much later.

A major problem with your approach has been your insistence on linking various concepts which have been floating around with what many have described as a North American Union. And, unfortunately for your approach, no one started to call the beast the NAU until guys like Buchanan started to critique, and subsequently describe, its elements. So, while it is fine to talk about past concepts, LINKING them to what we now call the NAU is problematic as there has never been a proposal which matches what the critics have identified as its elements, let alone a specific proposal from proponents called the NAU.

It makes eminent sense, therefore, to simply list as we have some of the ACTUAL proposals floating about, ie., Fox's proposals, the SPP, NAFTA, as not only are these proposals somewhat contemporary, they have been identified by critics and skeptics as the source for much of this talk of the NAU. But BECAUSE these proposals are SAID to form the basis of the NAU by some, and a source of over-heated speculation by others, we are straying into POV-land by declaring, as you did, that "NAU" proposals were being discussed in 2000 or 2003. Many claim there ARE no "proposals" per se. Others, like Buchanan, say otherwise. Canada Jack (talk) 18:46, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Would you please stop taking credit for edits I made? What you did is rewrite material I inserted to fit your own POV.

Your problem is you keep wanting to make this about the post-SPP conspiracy theories rather than the concept itself. When Vicente Fox says he wants to move the NAFTA area towards a continental union like the EU it stretches credulity to suggest that is anything but a North American Union. Amazingly, even when someone says having a "North American union similar to the EU" is a good idea you say it is not the same thing just because one word isn't capitalized. There is no rule saying something has to be referred to with the exact same name the article uses to be put in the article. Yet you're hear claiming it has to be exactly the same to be included. Who made you king of the article? Is there really any question as to whether they are talking about the subject of this article, which, I should remind you, is the overall concept and not some specific musing?

To be clear one way or the other the author did in fact call it a North American union, he was just not using it as a formal title, but instead as the general term for an unnamed concept.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:43, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Would you please stop taking credit for edits I made? What you did is rewrite material I inserted to fit your own POV. Sorry, you put in the first edits about Fox's views about the NAU? You inserted later material about his book, etc., but I never claimed otherwise. As to the sequence of events in terms of the SPP etc., I'm rather amazed you are suggesting anything otherwise here.

Your problem is you keep wanting to make this about the post-SPP conspiracy theories rather than the concept itself. When Vicente Fox says he wants to move the NAFTA area towards a continental union like the EU it stretches credulity to suggest that is anything but a North American Union.

Uh, no, Devil. What I have done is simply insist on what the sources say - and the sources say the talk of the NAU emerged from the SPP and Task Force discussions. That's in both those who dismiss the NAU as a conspiracy theory, and those who claim it is being enacted behind closed doors.

So, after three years or so, we've finally had what I've always asked from you - something, ANYTHING, from a source which suggests this was being planned pre-2005. But, even there, we simply have Pat Buchanan referring as an aside to Fox pushing for a North American Union in 2000 - and nothing else.

What you don't seem to get is what we need to rise to the level of inclusion at wikipedia is not the "does it look like, does it feel like, does it smell like" whatever it is, we need SOURCES to say that, in this case, "The North American Union was proposed by x and emerged out of several integration processes..." etc. You ALMOST have it with Buchanan. But you don't. Why not do what you did with Fox - and get that book of Buchanan? He might actually explicitly claim that this thing was being enacted or whatever (instead of it being something vaguely suggested by Fox).

There is no rule saying something has to be referred to with the exact same name the article uses to be put in the article. Yet you're hear claiming it has to be exactly the same to be included.

!!! Devil, this is called the ENGLISH LANGUAGE. If "union" in this text is lower-case, that means the phrase is a noun modified by an adjective clause. What we need is a PROPER NOUN. AGain, by analogy, it's the same distinction as saying "united states" which means a plural group of states which are together for some cause, or "United States" which refers to a specific political entity found in North America. Because "union" is not capped, it CAN'T be referring to the same thing that Pat Buchanan and others are referring to because that is a specific entity being talked about.(!) Canada Jack (talk) 00:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Do you seriously believe this nonsense? If a source said, "these united states, fifty in all consisting of Alaska, Alabama, (etc.), with the capital in Washington D.C. which declared their independence on July 4, 1776" would you honestly suggest the information in the source could not be included in an article about the United States just because they never used caps? This article should be considered like the articles on a prospective European federation. Just because the precise title used for the article is not used in a source does not mean it is not mentioned, because it is regarded as being an identical or similar concept. People use a variety of names to refer to something and sometimes do not even use names, but they are not taken to be referring to something else when it is obvious they are discussing the same subject. In this case even a five-year-old could see these are discussing the same subject.

Also, just because I'm tired of you taking credit for my significant contributions to this article: here, here, and here.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:06, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Devil, the basic question is this - Does the phrase in the 2000 article "North American union" refer to a specific proposal by that name, or does it not? It's because the "u" is lower case that it doesn't. Your example about the 50 states entirely misses the point as obviously now there is something called "the United States," when I used examples from 1776 when the phrase "united states" had an ambiguous meaning, as a description AND as a proper noun. For our purposes in 2000 there wasn't even a proposal for something called the North American Union. And, even if there had been, the way it is written, it can't be referring to it.

Caps are everything in English. If the phrase was "north American union," that would HAVE to mean a union of some sort of the northern part of the United States. This is a complete no-brainer and I am frankly astounded at your ignorance here and your inane attempt to suggest this means there was something called the "North American Union" proposed in 2000.

You will note that I made no objection to Fox being there in the first place. Why? Because he clearly was proposing some sort of enhanced trade bloc in 2000, along the lines of the EU. When it comes to the specific entity, you have been running into the same brick wall for these past number of years - NO ONE EVER PROPOSED A NORTH AMERICAN UNION BY NAME. And your POV that the "concept" - which, I repeat, no one had ever proposed - had been floating around for years isn't explicitly linked by anyone to what the hue and cry in 2005 and afterwards was directed towards is your basic problem here. WIth Buchanan, you now have someone who actually seems to be referring to a "proposal" in 2003, even though it seems that it is Buchanan himself who is naming it that.

Again, why not make reference to Buchanan? I would have no objection if you said "by 2003, Pat Buchanan was calling Fox's proposal the 'North American Union' and heavily criticizing it" or something along those lines. Why? Because Buchanan refers to this BY NAME in the article. The earlier piece DOES NOT. Canada Jack (talk) 12:27, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

One quick example which may be clearer to you. If we explored the history of, say, the National Hockey League (founded in 1917) and we found a letter from 1915 where a future principal says "we need to form a national hockey league to better...", that would NOT be an instance of where the league was first named as it is a generic description. If, however, he had written, "we should form a new league, say the National Hockey League, and it should have..." then that's something different. That IS a specific proper noun naming the entity. In both cases, these are instances which relate to the history of the league but only in the latter could we say that the name of the league is being discussed. Canada Jack (talk) 13:44, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

You see the problem here is your examples would still be included in the article because they are clear references to the subject, especially if it the subject was just the idea or proposal for an NHL. The article calls it a North American union, which only means it is a generic term for it rather than a proper title. However, that article is still calling it a North American Union, it just doesn't use a formal name for the concept. Also, the reason I would not just have Buchanan's mention is because both are legitimate and I'm not going to bow to your POV-pushing.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:01, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

However, that article is still calling it a North American Union, it just doesn't use a formal name for the concept.

God, Devil, how fucking dense are you? The difference here is THE North American Union verses A North American union. "A" union is a throwaway phrase for something like the EU. "The" Union is a specific proposal. What can't you grasp here?

As your sources now plainly spell out - and , btw, you've FINALLY got it right - "some saw this proposal as inevitable step etc...", there never was a specific proposal. Indeed, as the National Review from 2001 plainly spells out "A North American Union is the inescapable corollary of open borders..."

This is precisely what I've been arguing from day one - there is and never has been a specific proposal for anything resembling the EU in North America, at least not from anyone of any influence, and certainly not by that name. It's simply the paranoid imaginings of the consequences of applying some proposals like Fox's. Which is debatable, but that's all it is. And, most importantly, it's an opinion from these sources as what would inevitably happen here, not a response to any specific NAU proposal.

It would be OR to do this, but it is quite clear what is going on here. Fox muses about open borders, a political non-starter in the USA, as if we have to even mention that. Places like the National Review suggest this will lead to some situation like the EU, something which would be a North American Union. Buchanan starts to use the phrase too. Then, in 2005, their worst fears are seemingly realized - the SPP! The Task Force! Here comes the NAU! The FACT that no one has ever proposed this is any substantial way seems irrelevant. Nope. Because ANY tightening of the trade arrangement, ANY move beyond Nafta... leads to... the NAU! Which, in the end, is still an OPINION, not a fact.

What is truly remarkable here is you've actually done readers here a service by underlining what the skeptics have said all along - the move towards a or the NAU emerged completely out of paranoid fantasies from certain quarters. And we see now that those fantasies were based on some musings - a lot of wishful thinking - from Vicente Fox. Canada Jack (talk) 18:19, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Support?

Have stumbled across this article it seems very much against the idea of a union. should it not be evened out with a little facts about groups that support it. I was doing some research on the EU for a school project and got a little bored so I looked up North American Union and found a few groups in favor. seems this is information that would be of interest.MathewDill (talk) 01:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm completely in favor of a NAU, it will happen sooner or later... new generations are more friendly to this idea at least in Mexico. kardrak (talk) 04:51, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Latest Canada Jack nonsense

Canada Jack is showing shades of Vanilla Ice in his most recent revert. Though I have two cited articles saying Fox suggested a North American Union he insists that because one has an uppercase "u" while the other is lowercase it should not be included. While there is a "difference" it is completely irrelevant as both refer to the same concept with the same words. I should not be expected to clarify that one used lowercase while the other used uppercase and that insignificant difference is nowhere near enough to justify removing the phrase.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

You are infinitely silly, Devil. If "Union" is lower case, it's NOT A PROPER NOUN. Therefore, it is a DESCRIPTION, not a title.(!)

In his never-ending desperation to build a case that a "North American Union" has been years in the making, has found proposals from Vicente Fox from 2000 that would end up with increased integration along the lines of a European Union. This is fine, but this is also old news, and it was one of his perpetual musings which went nowhere. As this page already quite plainly states, Fox has long advocated for this.

/// It HAS been years in the making: [1] http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JZS/is_18_20/ai_n25095870/

/// It IS HAPPENING now, Canada's MILITARY and POLICE are being merged; the North American Competitiveness Council (NACC) consisting of 30 multinational corporations has already dictated changes to the REGULATIONS attached to ALL of Canada's, Mexico's and US's laws, which HARPER and the other two feds have put into effect. They did it with REGULATIONS because these don't have to pass Parliament, and radically altering the regulations effectively alters and "harmonizes" the LAWS of all three nations. YOU DON'T SEE IT OR FEEL IT, but it HAS been DONE. The "North American Forum on Integration" launched the Model Parliament for North America in the Canadian Senate in 2005, this is a COUP d'ETAT. The MODEL PARLIAMENT is a dry-run for the EU-style CONTINENTAL PARLIAMENT. Robert Pastor is aboard, same man aboard the "BUILDING A NORTH AMERICAN COMMUNTY" plan online at the Council on Foreign Relations web site since 2005, which elaborates on the SPP; however, NOT all the plan is spat out online. They also ad-lib.

/// The REFERENDUMS FOR QUEBEC TO SECEDE have all been parts of the FRONT to impose the EEC-EU system here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?4w4p1a6apx6fio2

AND: www.habeascorpuscanada.com, GROUNDS page. Which you can download HERE: http://www.mediafire.com/?dnhyzymgtny

You need to wake up; this is no joke, and incompetent reporting is one of the problems.

I suppose you also think 9/11 was Ben Ladin with box cutters? No basic physics in school?

Would you happen to have a credible source for any of these claims? Not as in "mediafire"- I've never even heard of it before. I'm talking about such credible sources as a government website, major newspaper or a quote that has been officially released by a member or employee of any of these three governments. If you seriously believe any of this. Lets see some real proof that wasn't made up by some conspiracy theorist. Do you have any? MrMonday1 (talk) 05:07, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Official statements

All but the first "official statement" relate only to the NAFTA superhighway. As the relationship between the NAFTA superhighway and this NAU is fictional, even if the NAFTA superhighway would be factual, they shouldn't be in this article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:47, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikileaks released info

http://gulagbound.com/16472/wikileaks-evidence-of-north-american-unio-april-28-2011-nai-01/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.101.49.64 (talk) 06:52, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I just removed the reference to this leaked memo as someone had inserted this into the lede and body with the following claim... ""U.S. government officials were also discussing with their Canadian counterparts..." This claim is not supported by the text of leaked document, nor even by the text of the National Post article discussing this leak. What the document describes is what the US ambassador to Canada sees as the Canadian stand on various aspects of future integration and what process would best achieve some or all those aims. In other words, it is a DESCRIPTION of what Canada sees, and NONE of this material is anything new or previously unstated, even back in 2005.

The lede quite misleadingly takes this American-written description of where the Canadians stand on future integration and claims there are "discussions" with Canada. Bullshit.

The cable could be integrated into the page in some manner, though it describes in essence what we already know. That, for example, there was (and is) a split in terms of whether Canadians see adopting a common currency with the US as in the interests, etc. Canada Jack (talk) 20:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)