Talk:Norman Schwarzkopf Jr./Archive 1

Archive 1

Predicting the future

"From the brief time that we did spend occupying Iraqi territory after the war, I am certain that had we taken all of Iraq, we would have been like the dinosaur in the tar pit -- we would still be there, and we, not the United Nations, would be bearing the costs of the occupation. This is a burden I am sure the beleaguered American taxpayer would not have been happy to take on." It Doesn't Take a Hero, p.498

Along those lines, would someone like to consider adding something about Schwarzkopf's statements during the US rush to war in Iraq in 2003? BBC News World Edition, "Stormin' Norman: Don't rush into war", http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2705275.stm

Initial initial

General Schwarzkopf's objections notwithstanding (and I don't think I'd like the name much either if I had it), if his first name weren't "Herbert" he wouldn't be a "Junior". - Hephaestos|§ 01:20, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, as his father was also called "H. Norman" by his own volition, although his given name was "Herbert Norman", it actually makes sense to attach a "Junior" to the son's name. The "initial initial" issue (as opposed to "middle initial") is treated in the West Point part of the autobiography (truth be told, though, I don't know whether such a naming scheme is in fact allowed in the U.S., or any other nation for that matter. He'd have trouble in Norway, I think). --Wernher 01:35, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Preferably we'd go with whatever's on the birth certificate for both of them, but I don't know of any way to easily obtain that info. - Hephaestos|§ 02:02, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This comment is poorly written. It's not clear why his father thought passing on the initial "H." was "getting revenge".

Initial military career

There's no mention of Schwarzkpof's enlisting as a private and serving in the Korean War, prior to his appointment to West Point. I don't know enough of the details to add this myself; anyone else game?

TJSwoboda 22:51, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

The reason there's no mention is because he didn't enlist as a private or serve in Korea.

User:Spock 156.34.30.54 20:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Moving comment from article to talk page

The following comment was added to the article by User:12.178.97.195 00:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC):

Military Resume should indicate greatest number of soldiers lead. Number of MIA, KIA, and by name/grade/MOS list.

This comment is appropriate for the talk page, not for insertion into the main article. — ERcheck (talk) 02:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Community Commander

What is a Community Commander ? is it a de:Stadtkommandant ? but in peacetime ?? --Symposiarch 15:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC) Community commanders look after all the dependents-related issues; housing; schools; medical care etc. Buckshot06(prof) 18:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

A little late in the game, but I can't leave it sitting there, half-answered. In locations where there is a US military presence involving buildings, real estate, grounds, physical plant, and so on, there will be an officer appointed to be have responsibility for the property, apart from the military units that might be stationed there. Because the property is permanent, as opposed to a unit, which may deploy or even be disbanded, this commander is independent of the units stationed at the location. This individual is referred to as the "post commander" in the Army, "base commander" in the Air Force, and I don't know what it is in the Navy or Marines. If the location includes facilities for dependents (housing, shopping, entertainment), this individual might also be referred to as the "community commander", because his or her responsibility would extend to the dependents of all personnnel in that location (those who live in housing belonging to the post or base) as well as any military members under his or her direct command. Cyberherbalist (talk) 18:07, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

In line cites

This article really needs some in line cites, I don't think merely quoting the biograph at the bottom is good enough for an article of such an important topic. Some 3rd party sources would be nice too :) SGGH ^speak! 20:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:It doesn't take a hero.jpg

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Gen. Schwarzkopf endorsed Sen. John McCain for President in January 2008

Gen. Schwarzkopf endorsed Sen. John McCain for President in January 2008

Gen. Schwarzkopf endorsed Sen. John McCain for President in January 2008 189.166.144.35 (talk) 23:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Criticism

The article should include some of the major criticism directed at Schwarzkopf. Some items : the left hook of the Hail Mary plan ended up being useless because the Iraqis were already retreating, he let the Iraqi Republican Guard escape back to Iraq, he ended the war too quickly, he bungled the armistice with the Iraqis letting them fly helicopter which they used to slaughter Iraqi people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.239.68.238 (talk) 08:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This article is very biased. At the critical moment, he showed some of the worst judgement of any general in any war. He won a war, although I would argue that with the technological and morale advantage it was impossible not to win, but he failed to achieve objectives. I can't honestly think of as big a military blunder as the first gulf war became. He failed so miserably to achieve objectives that we had to go back to war. There are 100 thousand Kurds not alive because of ol stormin normin. The biggest comparison I can think of is if the Allies halted short and, deciding they won, just left while Hitler was still in power. If that happened and the Nazis kept liquidating "undesirables," kept firing on Allied planes, that's as close as I can come to a comparison. Because of his total lack of insight, when we could have removed Saddam with the nearly unanimous support of the entire world and the unmitigated support of the Kurds and other groups, we had to do it all again nearly alone and without the moral superiority. I think Norman S. will go down in history as a prime example of the importance of both achieving objectives, and recognizing what those objectives should be. He literally snatched defeat from the mouth of victory. He is the perfect example of the classic and most tragic failure of any war: to fail to achieve necessary objectives. Every single person that died in the second gulf war is on his head. The second gulf war wasn't a failure of Bush junior, it was a failure of Norman S. This article lacks any original thinking or insight; like a book report on a subject the author assumes he is supposed to view favorably. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.221.78.100 (talk) 23:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

These criticisms are utter and complete garbage, and cannot ever be placed in the article because they can never be sourced to anyone beyond the level of an idiot armchair general with no resume to make said criticism. Desert Storm was brilliant, period. That is the overwhelming opinion of every Military analyst who has ever studied it. Wars simply don't happen with the kind of lopsided victory that occurred in DS, and to say "Well they would have won no matter what because of the superior technology" has got to be the lamest argument ever, particularly because you cant even start to prove it.

To say that he shouldn't have stopped is just insane. He was never anywhere near the level of authority to effect that decision. That was done by the President and the joint chiefs of staff. He was a field commander whose job was to plan and execute battles. In that regard he was clear in that if he was told to take Iraq that there was nothing that could stop him and he said that publicly in a press conference. The reason we didn't take Iraq was also stated in many, many press conferences: We simply did not have the mandate in the Arab world to take over an Arab country.

The same people that push this drivel are the ones that criticize GWB for going into Iraq. Its just mindless criticism for the sake of criticism.

And these are also the same people that cheerlead for Obama as if he is the savior himself and paper over his vast deficiencies without a moments thought.131.247.83.135 (talk) 17:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The invasion of Grenada has been criticized as a military fiasco. Do a web search for Grenada invasion fiasco debacle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.80.99.100 (talk) 17:04, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Why not mention he was one of the rare non-Brits Knighted?

I recall watching a PBS biography on him; when asked when was his most nervous time in his entire career, (his answer was, to me, hilarious and humble) he said that it was when he was Knighted by the Queen and made a Commander of the Bath or something(whatever that means)? Some great honor in the British Commonwealth that Eisenhower and Nimitz were also given. I would think that the fact it is so rarely given out to non-Brits is all the more reason why it's such a great honor. He may not be British, but if it was obviously that important to him personally, maybe it should be included here?DuckDodgers21.5 (talk) 03:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it's definitely noteworthy. Ill try and find the source.131.247.83.135 (talk) 17:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

[World Business Review]?

Norman Schwarzkopf is pretty funny on WBR. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EM0Li_esxK4 58.28.152.26 (talk) 06:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

IQ = 170

Many web sites claim he has an IQ of 170.

A bit dubious, definitely should be discussed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.99.68 (talk) 20:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I seriously doubt his IQ is anywhere near 170. I'd expect someone with an IQ that high to already be in college at the age of 10 or so. I'd like to know what test he took (IQ tends to vary by test) and who administered it to him. Otherwise it's just a rumor, and a rather implausible one at that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.232.78 (talk) 02:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Norman Schwarzkopf can be found in the 'famous members of mensa' list. Sometimes the IQ 168 is mentioned. So his IQ of 170 seems plausible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.108.48.16 (talk) 22:42, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Quotes

The first quote listed is actually a John Wayne quote -- "Courage is bein' afraid and saddlin' up anyway" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.103.177 (talk) 17:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordian" is actually a quote from former undersecretary of defense Jed Babbin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.62.114.187 (talk) 13:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I added two more awards to General Schwarzkoph's box near the top, his Air Medal and Army Commendation medal with Combat V. If anyone sees a problem with my edits, feel free to correct the code. I also edited near the bottom where the caption said "master parachutist badge" but the actual image was of the basic parachutist badge. The proper image is now displayed. Downzero (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC).

Years of promotions?

This article repeatedly mentions an instance of Schwarzkopf being promoted but doesn't give the year. This is especially true for his promotions in the 1970s and early 1980s. Would somenoe please fill in that information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.108.67.153 (talk) 20:16, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Service # for Norman Schwarzkopf

Schwarzkopf's Army biography lists his service # as 073 858. That is a pre-World War II era officer service number. With Schwarzkopf commissioned in the 1950s, does this have something to do with going to West Point? -OberRanks (talk) 04:21, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

100% cotton poplin BDUs

Does dedicating 30% of the Norman Schwarzkopf, Jr.#The Gulf War section (3 of 10 sentences) to the new 100% cotton poplin BDUs seem excessive to anyone else? 58.147.52.66 (talk) 08:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The "H" stands for...

I can see that this has been discussed earlier above, but is the current location of this clarification (on top of the infobox appropriate)? Here it is... "H. Norman Schwarzkopf (His father did not like being called Herbert by other members of the military, he only gave his son the initial H. as his first name. When General Schwarzkopf attended Westpoint he had to put H.(FIO) on all his forms under first name. (FIO stands for First Initial Only). This is explained in his autobiography.)" Does anyone agree with me that this shouldn't be the first thing you see when you come to the page? Mfaddersb (talk) 10:24, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

To all Gen Schwarzkopf admirers: I have added more details in quotes about French Foreign Legion. Basis: 1/ I have served in FFL 1990-1995. 2/ Went to the "Operation Daguett" with 6eme REG of FFL 3/ Was honored to be present to his "frocking" ceremony in Aubagne, France...as a Corporal in his Honor Guard! 4/ Due to all that I: a/ personally saw during ceremony b/ heard while in FFL (there were "talks" of US "maybe" acquiring Legion...and lots of "love" an a good way towards "Stormin' Norman" ---I personally doubt "Accordion" quote to be his...therefore I have included this in remarks behind quote as it is also quoted to 2 other people. Undoubtfully NOT a Gen Schwarzkopf quote, but didn't had the honor to ask him in person. If I ever SHOULD obtain this honor...I'll as and update then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.140.8.135 (talk) 01:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Family

He have a family? wife, kids, etc? 192.77.126.50 (talk) 22:34, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Norman Schwarzkopf Jr./Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

No mention of any American football career, so why in the project?

Last edited at 09:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 15:28, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

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Pneumonia: where did he get it?

seems many people get the disease at a hospital. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.84.95.229 (talk) 07:31, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Media references

Disregarding the fact that the Media References section dissappeared when I tried to edit it, I wanted to add another one to it - the M5A2 Schawrzkopf main battle tank of the United States Joint Strike Force from Endwar. - 46.138.186.75 (talk) 14:29, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Persian Gulf War -> Gulf War

Someone changed some (not all) of the instances of "Gulf War" to "Persian Gulf War", despite the fact that our article on the subject is named "Gulf War". I changed this article to consistently use "Gulf War", and it was re-edited to change some (not all) back to "Persian Gulf War". Should we not use the name of the article in WP for consistency, particularly in this case because it's such a high-profile article? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 21:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Its not really that important, per COMMON NAME it should be whatever the people know the conflict as, as the two (non military assigned) names most closely associated with it would be gulf war and persian gulf war. If you want it to be all one thing or all another you are welcome to edit the article to that end, just know that in the end the end it doesn't matter much. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The luckiest man in Iraq

That article is now nominated for deletion. Would you consider it appropriate to include a sentence or two about that episode in this article? Regards, Iselilja (talk) 10:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)