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Please do not...

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Please do not keep deleting Nordine Zouareg's profile. He was Mr. France, Mr. Europe, Mr.World and Mr.Universe in 1986.He is a well known personality on health and fitness in the United States. Thank youAditijjoshi (talk) 04:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC) Aditi[reply]

Searches

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Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

This article needed a lot of improvement

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It read like it had been taken in large part from his book and/or was written by someone who knows the subject personally - with a lot of fluff and weasel words. I have stripped most of the non relevant information out to bring the article length back more in line with the subject's notability and removed all of the weasel words and POV language. I still think it needs work, most of all it needs reliable third party citations to confirm awards and accolades. I also think the book section which I have not really touched needs rewording to be less like it came off the back cover of the book itself. Mfield (talk) 15:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification on awards and associations

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It also needs clarifying which associations he was a member of as the titles in the article do not match the official titles. It claims he was in the World Amateur Bodybuilding Association, but WP has articles for World_Amateur_Bodybuilding_Championships or World Body Building Association. It claims he won Mr Universe, but apparently per World_Amateur_Bodybuilding_Championships that award was stopped in 1976, long before he alledgedly won it, as it was owned by the NABBA - Universe_Championships, something he is not mentioned as being a part of. Mfield (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This still needs clarifying, if Mr Universe is a term most commonly used to describe a competition in an entirely different league then the use of the term should be qualified when it refers to a different competition. No WABBA information seems to use the term Mr Universe, instead referring to him as the Overall Winner. Mfield (talk) 19:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

His book was given a positive review in Publisher's Weekly

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Maybe that helps with notability? Otherwise, not much out there. I've added the reference. Jlg4104 (talk) 02:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've just done the absolute best I could to make this a viable article. Any thoughts? Should it go up for deletion anyway? Jlg4104 (talk) 03:12, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A couple more notes: Ref (2) does not go to "Mr. Universe" but rather to the World Championship of the World Amateur Bodybuilding Association (WABBA) site, which he is listed as overall winner. Otherwise the refs just don't check out at all. Jlg4104 (talk) 03:22, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conversation with Nordine Zouareg

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I emailed Nordine Zouareg during the AfD at: http://www.nordinez.com/contact. There was a required phone number section, so I put my number in. He called me and confused my wife. We spoke for a long time. He said that he won Mr. Universe twice, once in 1986, and once in 1988 in Guatalupe.

He said he had never won the Mr. Olypmia, so I took this out of the article.

Although he had heard of Wikipedia before, it was obvious he has never been on wikipedia,

He provided me with the French covers which are in the external links, which he showed me on the Google images. He has 320 images in his name--this maybe should make him notable.

He had no way to prove, other than with the French covers, that he was Mr. Universe. He said he could mail his certificates or ring.

He did make a good point, it was twenty years ago.

My investigative side screams "this is still not enough" to prove that he is Mr. Universe, but I don't think my role as an editor is to be a private eye. If he fooled me about being Mr. Universe, he also fooled numerous authors, journalists, and even soloflex (there is a blog entry on this).

And most important, I believe him, he sounded very sincere, like a really nice guy. Sure there is no way to "verify" this, but sometimes wikipedia editors gotta stop living the mosaic law, with strict zealous observations of the rules, and start living a higher law, where the spirit of the law is more important....

I told him to email me if he comes up with any more information. travb (talk) 02:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is certainly good to have his input and I think that there is any measure of needing to be a private eye, I rather think it boils down to the interpretation and claim of a term for a title. The thing is the French magazine covers don't say he won "Mr Universe", they call him a world champion, which is consistent with his {undisputed) winning of the 1986 WABBA Overall Winner title. The facts seem to support that the term Mr Universe is used exclusively in the industry in the context of the NABBA competition which he did not seemingly compete in.That's what needs clarifying and it is odd that there doesn't seem to be a single industry source that relates the term Mr Universe to any competition discussed in the article. Maybe some smaller competitions use the term Mr Universe but it is misleading to call him a Mr Universe if the most relevant and popular use of the term is in a different sporting league or competition. Maybe at some point someone used the term Mr Universe as a generic recognizable term for a bodybuilding champion but it does seem to really point to a specific competition. Mfield (talk) 03:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Zouareg said that the Mr. World and Mr. Universe are the same competition. That after someone wins Mr. World, they go onto win Mr. Universe in another part of the competition. As a guy with stick arms, who lifted weights a total of maybe 20 times in his life, it was kind of confusing.
I wish we had more sources. You can never have to many sources. Zouareg did mention a magazine called "Muscle Memory (magazine)". The site didn't look very professional, so I dismissed that site. It doesn't seem like a magazine, only a site.[1][2]
Zouareg also said he did something with Oprah.
BTW I just found out that we are currently on wikirage by the way travb (talk) 04:58, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Zouareg is mentioned on Oprah.com: [3]. travb (talk) 05:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I found the wabba email address: info@wabbaworld.com I will email them. travb (talk) 05:32, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The email address is broken. travb (talk) 05:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What Nordine Zouareg says on his site versus Arnold Schwarzenegger

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"Nordine used mental exercises to overcome his body’s limitations, ultimately becoming a champion bodybuilder and earning the titles of Mr. France, Mr. Europe, Mr. World and Mr. Universe, all by the age of 23, making him the youngest athlete to win a Mr. universe title after the famous Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger."

I keep having to go back to his website to look at this information, so it is good to have it here, so I can refer to it...travb (talk) 05:39, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arnold Schwarzenegger

"One of the first competitions he won was the Junior Mr. Europe contest in 1965.[5] He won Mr. Europe the following year, at age 19.[5][13] He would go on to compete in and win many bodybuilding contests, as well as some powerlifting contests, including five Mr. Universe (4 – NABBA [England], 1 – IFBB [USA]) wins, and seven Mr. Olympia wins, a record which would stand until Lee Haney won his eighth consecutive Mr. Olympia title in 1991."

I am confused, why is Mr. Zouareg comparing himself to Schwarzenegger if Zouareg won the World Amateur Bodybuilding Association (WABBA) contest, but Schwarzenegger won Mr. Universe in NABBA [England] and IFBB [USA]?

I can't seem to find much on the World Amateur Bodybuilding Association (WABBA) Mr. Universe contest, is it still held? travb (talk) 05:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brief reflection on the AfD discussion

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First, I want Mr. Zouareg to know, if he's listening, that my initial nomination for deletion was not meant as any disrespect to him. I apologize for any offense he may have taken at my characterization of the article.

Second, I came across the article by clicking "Random article," and it looked like a possible candidate for an AfD discussion, based on the page's problems in establishing notability and verifiability. I did my own research and was unable to solve these problems, so I nominated it for AfD. I considered the problem to be the page's problem, not Mr. Zouareg's. He is clearly an accomplished person, no question.

Third, I have learned to be a bit more careful about nominating for deletion. Jlg4104 (talk) 11:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think your deletion nomination was completely fair and reasonable. The article's sourcing had not been improved despite being tagged as such for a long time. If the AfD forced people to actually help fix it rather than leave it in a broken state then that is a good thing. It still has issues that need fixing as well per discussion above. As you say it is about the article. Mfield (talk) 16:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
First I really respect Jlg4104 withdrawing the nomination, she earned a barnstar from me and another user because of it.
AfDs should never be used to clean up an article.
I commend Jlg4104 for attempting to clean up this article before she put the article up for deletion. That was very noble of her/him.
Thanks, travb (talk) 19:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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