Talk:Nokia 2.2

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Merge discussion

I think the Nokia 2 and 2.2 (and 2.1) shouldn't be merged because they are very different phones from different generations of HMD global devices and there will be more 2.x phones in the future - 26/8/19 FormularSumo

I agree. Plus Google starts the countdown on Android One OS and security updates when each phone is released. 2.2 will still be getting updates when 2.1 has finished getting updates. The Nokia versions are listed separately on the Android One page.

Every version is notable and has many articles from reliable sources written about them and their features. -- Timeshifter (talk) 08:26, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If no one else objects then I'm going to delete the proposition to merge the Nokia 2.x articles in a week from now. FormularSumo (talk) 15:59, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have now deleted the merge articles template. FormularSumo (talk) 07:15, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No determiner ("the") required before definite names and proper nouns ("Nokia 2.2")

"Nokia 2.2" is a single unit, a definite name, a proper noun and a core noun, ~~is not part of the lexical representation,~~ and is not phrasal. Unless qualified with 'device' and 'phone' at the end, putting the definite article is grammatically incorrect. It should be noted, that putting the definite article before a core name is a very common mistake, even among native speakers of English, but way more common amongst people, to whom English is not their mother tongue.

When to Use Articles Before Nouns
On the Grammar of Names, by John Anderson

-Mardus /talk 01:26, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In proper names ("Nokia 2.2"), 'the' is not part of the lexical representation. -Mardus /talk 01:29, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also:

One of the NOTs is "noun + number": "Nokia 2.2" is the same as "room 221", where the definite article is verboten. -Mardus /talk 02:10, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On the contrary, it is a very common practice to use "the" when referring to a smartphone. Refer IPhone X and Samsung Galaxy Note 7 for examples of articles where "the" is often used before the device name. Besides, articles like Tiger use "the" despite referring to the species as a whole. RedBulbBlueBlood9911Talk 08:17, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that 'the' should be used. Phone models are always referred to as 'the', whether that's technically correct or not, it's what sounds correct to most people. FormularSumo (talk) 09:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What may sound correct, is not grammatically correct. Noun+number is not preceded by the definite article, for the same reason that 'Room 123' is not preceded by the definite article either. -Mardus /talk 16:04, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As per this, "this is basically a question about whether something is countable or not. iPhones and iPads (and Nokia 2.2s) are countable things. As such, they take articles, such as a/an and the." This site also supports the "the Nokia 2.2" phrase, and both specifically deal with using articles before product names. RedBulbBlueBlood9911Talk 04:03, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're referring to a forum opinion by someone who is not even a native speaker of English, while my above links refer to the works of an academic and a teacher, both of whom have a degree in English.

We use the definite article before iPhones, iPods, and iPads, because in each, the core words are 'phone', 'pad', and 'pod', which are all descriptive nouns: therefore, "the i Phone", "the i Pod", "the i Pad", were the 'i' properly separated from their core words (nouns).

Whereas the definite article is not used as soon as a model number or like construct is used: "iPhone 4" (disregard the current revision of its Wikipedia article, where the is wrongly used), "iPhone SE", which is a single unit and a proper noun. Adding the definite article would transform the word 'iPhone' into the property of 'SE', which is incorrect.

I'll refer to a couple forum posts myself, which offer correct advice about using definite articles before proper names; here, one by user ERFrance.

User bib is very clear: iPhones, iPads, and iPods are countable, whereas Windows 7 is not. 'Nokia 2.2' is not countable either, despite the fact, that it's a smartphone, too.

David Appleyard is very specific, that:

the definite article is not applied before company names, and certainly not before a noun followed by a categorising letter or number.

David Appleyard's Guide to Article Usage in English was also included as an exhibit in an amicus curiae brief submitted to a case in the court of law at the Michigan Supreme Court, which is a high marker of the quality of Mr. Appleyard's work.

'Nokia 2.2', therefore, is such a noun followed by a categorising letter or number, and Nokia is also a company name.

In this delicious New York Times article, 'Marine One' is used withot the definite article.

Further, from stackexchange:

When a designation follows a common noun, that noun phrase does not allow the definite article. It doesn't matter whether those designations are numbers, letters, proper names, or anything else. — user Gary Botnovcan.

Also:

"...[A] postpositive number inherently marks the noun phrase as definite." They have the effect of 'marking a noun phrase as definite and blocking at least articles a and the.' — per Janus Bahs Jacquet.

My arguments are also supported at ENpodcast:

no 'the' before a noun followed by a categorising letter or number.

-Mardus /talk 16:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise only for accidentally pressing the 'Return' button before managing to provide the proper revert nationale for this revert, but the above links and explanations should serve as sufficient rationale for the revert. -Mardus /talk 16:39, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been linked to at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#Talk:Nokia 2.2. RedBulbBlueBlood9911Talk 07:25, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Nokia company itself uses "the Nokia 2.2" on its website,^[1] as do the websites reviewing this phone.^[2][3][4] Wikipedia uses the Nokia 1, the Nokia 1.3, up to the Nokia 9300 We likewise write the Alfa Romeo GT, the Bugatti Divo, the Citroën 2CV, and so on (and so do the sources). --Lambiam 08:45, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for participating in this discussion, Lambian. Do you happen to know whether this grammar rule ("the" before a product name) has a particular name? I was looking for a name for this and some English academic discussing about it since @Mardus: appeared to insist on seeing an academic discussing it. RedBulbBlueBlood9911Talk 09:21, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rementioning Lambiam as I had a typo. RedBulbBlueBlood9911Talk 09:27, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the rule is that the name of a model, even though a brand name, functions as a count noun. Such names have plurals ("the best iPhones") and can obviously take a determiner ("my iPhone"). I do not expect there to already be a name for the "model rule" (: but now there is one :). --Lambiam 10:11, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) It's not what some grammarian in an ivory tower tries to force on the great unwashed. It's what any ~~reasonable~~ native speaker would say, and that's "the Nokia 2.2". Clarityfiend (talk) 09:22, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose we can add "the" once Mardus agrees. RedBulbBlueBlood9911Talk 09:27, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Put the "the"s in. This is no different from car makes and models. We say "the Ford Mustang" or "the Chrysler Sebring" and so on. --Khajidha (talk) 19:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, put them in. I'm not qualified of course, not being an academic and a teacher, both of whom have a degree in English, but I think here Mardus fell into a fallacy, as 'the Nokia 2.2' is not at all like 'room 221', but rather like 'the guest room": the '2.2' is not a serial (I have had several phones from Nokia, this one is my second and a fifth) but a class name, just like 'Divo', 'Mustang' and '2CV'

Beside that the autority in WP ist the source. So if most reputable sources write "Nokia 2.2" without article, be it without article, but if most reputable sources write it with article then it must be with article. All arguments based on grammar rules and academics' opinions constitute Original Research, and this is really very much verboten, yeah. (talk) 2003:F5:6F05:BC00:744A:96C9:C7E9:8B5 (talk) 22:34, 23 June 2020 (UTC) Marco PB[reply]

Correct: "The Nokia 2.2 runs Android"
Correct: "The Nokia 2.2 runs the Android operating system"
Correct: "Nokia [referring to the company] uses the Android operating system"
Correct: "The Nokia [referring to an individual smartphone] runs the Android operating system"

Wrong: "Nokia 2.2 runs the Android"
Wrong: "Nokia 2.2 runs Android operating system"
Wrong: "Nokia [referring to an individual smartphone] uses the Android operating system"
Wrong: "The Nokia [referring to the company] uses the Android operating system"

--Guy Macon (talk) 01:45, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]