Talk:Nikolai Lukashenko

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This article was nominated for deletion on 24 September 2020. The result of the discussion was keep.

This page was proposed for deletion by Ivar the Boneful (talk · contribs) on 14 September 2019.

Biography: Politics and Government

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Notability

Kolya Lukashenka fully meets the notability criteria and there are absolutely no reasons for deletion of the article.

I quote:

If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list.

"Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.
- The book-length history of IBM by Robert Sobel is plainly non-trivial coverage of IBM.
- Martin Walker's statement, in a newspaper article about Bill Clinton,^[1] that "In high school, he was part of a jazz band called Three Blind Mice" is plainly a trivial mention of that band.
"Reliable" means that sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.
"Sources"^[2] should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. There is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage, but multiple sources are generally expected.^[3] Sources do not have to be available online or written in English. Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.
"Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it. For example, advertising, press releases, autobiographies, and the subject's website are not considered independent.^[4]
"Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject merits its own article. A more in-depth discussion might conclude that the topic actually should not have a stand-alone article—perhaps because it violates what Wikipedia is not, particularly the rule that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.^[5]

// Wikipedia:Notability

Czalex 07:50, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Martin Walker (1992-01-06). "Tough love child of Kennedy". The Guardian.
^ Including but not limited to newspapers, books and e-books, magazines, television and radio documentaries, reports by government agencies, and academic journals. In the absence of multiple sources, it must be possible to verify that the source reflects a neutral point of view, is credible and provides sufficient detail for a comprehensive article.
^ Lack of multiple sources suggests that the topic may be more suitable for inclusion in an article on a broader topic. It is common for multiple newspapers or journals to publish the same story, sometimes with minor alterations or different headlines, but one story does not constitute multiple works. Several journals simultaneously publishing different articles does not always constitute multiple works, especially when the authors are relying on the same sources, and merely restating the same information. Similarly, a series of publications by the same author or in the same periodical is normally counted as one source.
^ Works produced by the subject, or those with a strong connection to them, are unlikely to be strong evidence of notability. See also: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Questionable sources for handling of such situations.
^ Moreover, not all coverage in reliable sources constitutes evidence of notability for the purposes of article creation; for example, directories and databases, advertisements, announcements columns, and minor news stories are all examples of coverage that may not actually support notability when examined, despite their existence as reliable sources.

Should content cited to social media posts and WP:OR be removed from this article?

Should the following content be removed? Chetsford (talk) 22:53, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On 23 August, 2020, during the 2020 Belarusian protests, footage emerged of Nikolai Lukashenko at the Independence Palace in Minsk where he is shown with his father and is dressed in military uniform and is holding a gun.^[1]^[2] Later a photograph was circulated showing Nikolai armed with an automatic rifle, sitting with his father at the cabinet table in the palace.^[3]^[4]

Remove Claims are cited to two Telegram text messages and the editor's WP:OR visual analysis of a photograph appearing in otherwise WP:RS (but which doesn't contain the actual information being claimed, or even mention Nikolai by name). We have strict and exacting WP:BLP standards. Original photographic analysis by editors and the use of text messages as sources don't meet those standards. Chetsford (talk) 22:53, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Chetsford, the fourth source specifically says "[Alexander Lukashenko] was accompanied by heavily armed bodyguards, reportedly including his 15-year-old son and preferred heir Kolya," so there's at least some information there. Gbear605 (talk) 23:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Partially - Obviously the information sourced to Telegram messages should be removed, as should the OR, but the relevant information from the Independent should be kept. Perhaps the following passage, all of which is cited to the Independent article:

During the 2020 Belarusian protests, Lukashenko was one of the "heavily armed bodyguards" accompanying his father, who at the time was talking to riot police and carrying an assault rifle.

Gbear605 (talk) 23:49, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'd counter that pushing a one-sentence observation of when he once was walking next to his father for 30 seconds into a three paragraph biography is trivial and WP:UNDUE. Chetsford (talk) 03:07, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it's UNDUE with the current state of the article. I'd say that it might should be added after all the sources mentioned in the AFD have been added in. Gbear605 (talk) 03:10, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A little bit of searching found some more sources that talk about it:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/09/17/protest-plagued-belarus-strongman-transfers-son-to-moscow-school-reports-a71474 More recently in August, Nikolai was filmed wearing military fatigues and toting an automatic rifle next to his father as mass anti-Lukashenko protests raged outside the presidential palace in Minsk.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/nikloai-lukashenko-alexander-lukashenkos-gun-toting-son-15-is-being-groomed-as-belarus-king-joffrey This week, Nikolay Lukashenko, the youngest son of the “last dictator in Europe,” came of age during the worst period of his father’s reign. With 100,000 protesters demanding Alexander Lukashenko’s resignation and free and fair elections in Minsk, the 15-year-old flew over the crowds in a helicopter, all dressed up in the tactical gear of an elite commando. Another image released by the regime showed him sitting at a table opposite his father with an automatic rifle at his side, apparently ready to defend his life.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/29/alexander-lukashenko-brings-16-year-old-son-onto-frontline-protests/ (don't have quote because paywall, but what's visible is talking about this

There are also a number of sources that are in either Belarusian or Russian, both of which I'm unable to read, but clearly it's not a non-event.

Gbear605 (talk) 03:20, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The mere fact that a vast number of sources repeats the same trivial observation sourced to the same single photo does not make this WP:DUE. Chetsford (talk) 03:31, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Removal per Chetsford explanation. We need to be very careful about living people, particularly when it comes to children. (edit conflict) (Summoned by bot) --I dream of horses (Contribs) Please notify me after replying off my talk page. Thank you. 23:53, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notified: Wikipedia:WikiProject Belarus, Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Politics and government. I dream of horses (Contribs) Please notify me after replying off my talk page. Thank you. 23:53, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Agree with its removal from this article per Chetsford - Idealigic (talk) 06:06, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep - I have read the concerns of other users in this discussion and have therefore made changes to add a range of both independent and state affiliated media sources which confirm that the person in the footage was indeed Nikolai Lukashenko. I believe that it is as equally notable as the information at the end of the paragraph above where it states that NL attended a parade with his father. The timing of the event, during a period of political instability in the country, during which the main presidential residence was almost stormed by protesters, also adds notability to the event. I have no objection to the length of the sentence being reduced as suggested in the discussion above if this aids readability. Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 18:16, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"state affiliated media sources which confirm" I undid your addition of BelTA which is, like RT, certainly not a WP:RS. Chetsford (talk) 10:43, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"it states that NL attended a parade with his father" Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not, in fact, Nikolai's Outlook Express calendar. We don't generally include the minutia of an individual's life; where they ate lunch on the 3rd day of August, what event they were a spectator at on the 12th day of September, what time they woke up on the 4th day of October, etc., merely because we have that information available. See WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, WP:UNDUE, WP:INDISCRIMINATE, and our numerous other, related policies. Chetsford (talk) 10:43, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Remove I'm not quite convinced by these sources; it may be a BLP violation. ~ HAL333 23:06, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Remove Strong sourcing is required for any claims in any BLP, and I am unsure that this photo content is even directly relevant in this BLP. I have seen such misused in the past to make implications about people, and photos are about the weakest "evidence" around. Collect (talk) 12:43, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

Lukashenko's rumored illegitimacy

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus to remove statement:Like Chestford mentioned, the statement only exists to humiliate the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unnamed anon (talk • contribs)

The article states, sourced to this reference [1]:

"Alexander Lukashenko has faced criticism for having Nikolai out of wedlock."

Should this be removed? Chetsford (talk) 11:00, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Remove The sentence is about criticism the elder Lukashenko has received, not the younger one, and the inclusion of this sentence here offers no encyclopedic value and is designed only to humiliate and dehumanize the subject. Our BLP policies preclude this content; specifically, WP:BLPGOSSIP says we should weigh content as to whether it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject and also WP:AVOIDVICTIM which guides that When writing about a person noteworthy only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems—even when the material is well sourced. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. This is of particular importance when dealing with living individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions. Chetsford (talk) 11:00, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Remove In the 21st Century, why is this even an issue? Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 12:32, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Remove per Chetsford. ~ HAL333 16:45, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Remove, although it's worth noting the exact portion of the Guardian article that nominally supports this claim: Kolya, however, is Lukashenko's son by his personal doctor, Irina Abelskaya, as he admitted last year. Alexander Milinkevich, an opposition leader and former presidential candidate, said of Kolya's public profile: "Most Belarusians are very negative about it, especially Orthodox believers and the elderly who respect family values.". If a more impartial and reliable source than an opposition leader's off-the-cuff comments can be found, it could potentially be valid to add mention of this. But if this is the best source we can find, it's not enough for inclusion. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:01, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Remove Personal comments about illegitimacy are in the same general area as sexuality and other issues of marginal value at most. Though it might be fun to add a few paragraphs on Henry VIII, as he is dead. And a bunch of others. But. this person is alive, and while WP has a huge number of bad BLPs now, it is not worth it to add another. Collect (talk) 12:47, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Languages

I couldn't find anything in footnote 14 to indicate that he speaks Chinese. Also, does he speak Belarusian? Kdammers (talk) 02:27, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know this was nearly a year ago, but thank you for bringing this up, Kdammers. It appears the passage has since been corrected, which is excellent. In answer to your question: maybe? To my knowledge, he's only been seen speaking Russian publicly, as well as some broken English. It might even a bit generous to state (in wiki-voice) that he "speaks English", honestly.

[1] Martin Walker (1992-01-06). "Tough love child of Kennedy". The Guardian.

[2] Including but not limited to newspapers, books and e-books, magazines, television and radio documentaries, reports by government agencies, and academic journals. In the absence of multiple sources, it must be possible to verify that the source reflects a neutral point of view, is credible and provides sufficient detail for a comprehensive article.

[3] Lack of multiple sources suggests that the topic may be more suitable for inclusion in an article on a broader topic. It is common for multiple newspapers or journals to publish the same story, sometimes with minor alterations or different headlines, but one story does not constitute multiple works. Several journals simultaneously publishing different articles does not always constitute multiple works, especially when the authors are relying on the same sources, and merely restating the same information. Similarly, a series of publications by the same author or in the same periodical is normally counted as one source.

[4] Works produced by the subject, or those with a strong connection to them, are unlikely to be strong evidence of notability. See also: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Questionable sources for handling of such situations.

[5] Moreover, not all coverage in reliable sources constitutes evidence of notability for the purposes of article creation; for example, directories and databases, advertisements, announcements columns, and minor news stories are all examples of coverage that may not actually support notability when examined, despite their existence as reliable sources.

[6] ttps://t.me/nexta_live/9370

[7] ttps://t.me/belsat/14694

[8] ttps://mediazona.by/online/2020/08/23/belvybary-15#34917

[9] ttps://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/belarus-protests-lukashenko-assault-rifle-video-minsk-a9684651.html

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