Talk:Niccolò Paganini/Archive 1

Archive 1

On changes of wordings

I felt compelled to revert some of the wordings in the article. First, the fingerboard of the violin was to be played with only one hand, so, yes, any intervals, possible or not, could only be reached by a single hand span. Second, Joachim's and Yasye's contributions to the evolution of violin music were significant, but their input added little on the its technical development. So, in that context, neither violinists, or their colleagues (most notably Ernst, and Vieuxtemps) could be credited for making giant leaps in technical evolution, in the way Paganini did. Musically, yes, but not technically. On those grounds, I have changed the corresponding passages.--Bart weisser 06:01, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

On early life

"Niccolo Paganini was a wonderful violin player. So far in violin history no one has been able to beat him." Come on now! Are we writing a middle school paper here or what?

Howdy again. First, I believe only numbers under TEN should be spelt out, not 100. I have never heard of such rule.

Second, I have checked a few biographies on Paganini, and they all mentioned his first concert took place when he was 12, not 9. Chances are, Encarta is incorrect. But then again, Paganini had a habit of exaggerating his life for publicity purposes, so this would still be a subject of debate. But for now, I think it's better to better to stick with the opinion of Paganini scholars, not from an encyclopedia CD-ROM.

Third, I don't know if Paganini started his drinking and gambling habits as early as 16. I will look into this.

Fourth, Paganini had a number of teachers. They were as follows

1) Giovanni Servetto 2) Francesco Gnecco 3) Giacomo Costa ("good old Costa" in Paganini's terms) 4) Alessandro Rolla 5) Ferdinando Paër (sponsored by Marquis Gian Garlo di Negro) 6) Gasparo Ghiretti (ended when Paganini was about 13 or so)

Paganini never stayed long with a single teacher, as a) Paganini came from a modest family, and lessons were earned through scholarship with certain teachers for a limited time (usually 6 months) b) Paganini went beyond the teacher's abilities (in case of Paër, he almost referred Paganini to Ghiretti -- Paër's own teacher, almost immediately) c) Paganini refused to heed the instructor's advice (for instance, Costa, whom Paganini never took seriously).

Note to self ---

---

Left hand plucking is not an invention of Paganini. In fact, August Durand, a polish violinist, was allegedly the first violinist to have used the technique of "solo accompaniment" with left-hand pizz., which appeared on many of Paganini's solo works.

He was one of very few violinists at the time to have mastered the Locatelli caprices, in which many of Paganini's techniques appeared.--Bart weisser 13:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

first virtuoso??

I thought VIvaldi was the first violin virtuoso. Also i edited "the greatest violinist ever" to "one of the greatest violinists ever"

I quote from The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Schonberg, page 120:

Paganini was the archetype of the Virtuoso-as-Hero, though there had of course been famous virtuosos before him. [snip] Italy in the eighteenth century had some extraordinary violinists, and one of them, Giuseppe Tartini (1692-1770), anticipated Paganini, in a way, by writing a satanically difficult work named The Devil's Trill.

Based upon that, I think the "first virtuoso" moniker has to go, since it just isn't so. Karlhahn 02:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't say that he was the first ever virtuoso. It just said it was considered by many the first ever virtuoso. There could be some people who think otherwise, but what is the most common knowledge? Vivaldi was a great composer but he wasn't such a virtuoso as Paganini was. You can say he wrote more passionate music, but was him on par with Paganini techinically speaking? Maybe Giuseppe Tartini could be used as a counter-example to Paganini pioneering virtuosity, but denying the impact Paganini had on violin techinique is denying his contribution to music history! Loudenvier 01:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Both the original version and the change to it I made have drawn the "citation needed" flag. I know, for example, that Paganini commanded performance fees that modern rock-stars would envy, and that no other violin soloist of his day could boast that (from a music history class I took 30 years ago), but I don't have a reference in my library to back that up, so I can't include it in the article. I'm not sure that Schonberg's "Virtuoso-as-Hero" quote is enough to back up even the sentence I put in. So I will leave it as is until after my next visit to the public library. Karlhahn 15:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I know how you are feeling: You know he was such a legend, and that his feats were incomparable and there was no match for him on his time and before (maybe not even after)... But you don't have a source to back it up! It's a terrible feeling :-) Regards. Loudenvier 16:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Sources for weasel words

This article has a lot of sources, just see the bibliography section. It's the way an ordinary encyclopedia or work would cite their references. There are a couple of citation needed tags that are certainly answered on those sources listed in the bibliography section. People use to put the citation needed tags without further analysing the sources. An article about Paganini, a violinist so much celebrated, would ask for a footnote for every weasel term used. I think the article would be rendered unreadable. What's the compromise solution here? Regards Loudenvier 15:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Getting too emotional with Paganini

I have noticed the problem with "weasel words", too. Even with sufficient evdience, you can't possibly say such absolute things like "Paganini is the greatest violinist ever" or "He played with perfect intonation." The point is, neither statement is accurate or true, as a matter of fact. What is true, is that "Paganini was a famous violinist / composer of his time", and "He was a pioneer of modern violin techniques". These statements are more representative and more reasonable.

I think editors to this article should be refrain from making strong emotional statements (and hence refrain from using weasel words altogether), that one would frequent encounter in propaganda. When reading an encyclopedia, people want FACTS, not ADJECTIVES.

Sometimes I can't help but to wonder if it were an article for Sebastian Bach. I am considering rewriting the whole thing with all the weasel words taken out.--Bart weisser 13:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Please, read the encyclopedia britannica entry on paganini, they too get emotional... The fact is that Paganini is considered by many sources to be the greatest or at least most important violinist ever. The problem is that those sources are specialized books about the history of music or violin technique specifically, which are expensive, and not at all available on the net (I.E. hard to cite). If you refrain from using words that really defined such great virtuoso as Paganini you will be incurring in another mistake: you will be hiding from the reader the actual impact such man had on violin technique, virtuosity and music in general. You will be diminishing the impact Paganini had on music. The only way I see to please people like you who do not think superlatives like Paganini deserves such adjectives is to cite other people's works: X said Paganini was the greatest violin player ever; Y said Paganini intonation was perfect. But please, search for those sources before deleting content from this article. I think this article refrains from praising him as he deserves. We all fear being POV, and as such we refrain from using the correct adjectives to describe Pananini work and technique. If you search the net you will see that praise for him is far more intense elsewhere. Loudenvier 14:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Citation from all music guide:

Paganini's impact on nineteenth century music cannot be overestimated: he set an entirely new standard of technical virtuosity; he was among the first musicians to champion the music of Berlioz (having commissioned, but never performed, Harold in Italy); and the inspirational effect that his works would have on the young Franz Liszt -- who set out to duplicate Paganini's achievements on the piano -- would alter both the course of music and the life of the young Liszt forever.

In short they called Paganini, in retrospect, the Lizt of the violin, and also that Paganini had a great influence on Lizt. Loudenvier 14:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Louenvier: I have a couple points.

1) Encyclopedia Brittanica is a source for *trivial* information. I think the Wikipedia can do a lot better than that. Besides, there are many Paganini scholars who have access to the hard-to-get-to sources. This, I think is a good place to summarise these findings.

2) How would one "diminish" impact if I decided to use facts rather than weasel words? For example, if I wrote "Paganini was the greatest violinist ever." How is he the greatest violinist ever? Because Encyclopedia Brittanca said so? Because Encarta said so? Even with the proper sources, the whole sentense will still be petty meaningless, because it does does not say what makes him great, and you can probably read something like that for every notable violinist.

An alternate example, "Paganini was an unprecedented pioneer of modern violin techniques such as blah, blah, and blah." Though it does not get emotional, the statement has more impact than the first example, and is more accurate.

3) I am a violinist myself (and I imagine contributors to this article will have at least some background on violin music and history). So I can appreciate the impact of Paganini on the music world. But keep telling someone that "this is great, that is good" may be convincing for the gullable and immature, but it is facts and figures that will ultimately win the argument. --Bart weisser 11:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm an electric bass player myself, not even a Fretless bass, so I can't argue a lot with you on Paganini, after all, that's your musical instrument! :-) I have a litle problem with avoiding weasel words at all costs: Mike Stewart is a bodyboarder. He was the reigning champion on the sport for almost 13 years. The sport itself was shaped by him, and I'm not exagerating. Almost every single bodyboarder regards him as the greatest bodyboarder ever (myself included). But it's very hard to pass this impression here on wikipedia because we can't use the most proper adjectives to describe him or it will be regarded as POV. As time goes by, this common knowledge will fade and fade, and soon it will be regarded as legend or fairy tales, but not if it gets a written record. I'm trying to avoid the loss of information. I think the same goes with Paganini. Very hard to maintain a proper encyclopedic tone and still "tell the truth" or "pass the right impression" about him and his work. I think your reasoning to be very good: let the facts speak for themselves, but we need to uncover the facts in the first place. Some violinist or musicologists could pay a litle attention to this article, don't you think so? How to summon help? Loudenvier 19:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Retuning of violin?

I remember reading or hearing that Paganini made a practice of playing his violin tuned up or down but not telling anyone how it was tuned. Can anyone substantiate my recollection? John Link 00:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

All I know are these: Concerto I in D major. Violin was tuned one whole tone up (thus playing in E major on a D major scale) and the orchestra playing in E major.

Theme and Variations on Moses in Egypt - G string tuned up to B-flat. Possibly (according to Yehudi Menuhin) the D, A, E, strings are also tuned to E-flat, B-flat, and E-flat to improve resonance of the violin.--Bart weisser 15:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

More works inspired by Paganini

There is are two songs should probably be in "Works inspired by Paganini" section, one is called The Infant Paganini and the other is called The Boy Paganini by Edward Mollenhauer.

Mercury compound

"His health deteriorated due to Mercury poisoning by the mercury compound used regularly". Which mercury compound? There are many. Can we specify, please?--Rossheth | Talk 15:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Paganini's remains

Seems as though I recall a music professor way back in college mention that his body was an attraction in various European towns. Something about how it kept being dug up and put on traveling displays for a long time after his death....Anybody heard this? Or was it some other musician, or just a tall tale??....Engr105th 21:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

All I know is that he was denied a catholic burial. VegSXEBassist 06:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe Veg is correct. To add to that, not only was he denied a Cathloic burial, conservative officials in Genoa did not allow Paganini's body to be returned and buried in his home city. It took four years, and an appeal to the Pope, that the body was allowed to be transported to Genoa, but not buried. His remains were finally buried in 1876, in a cemetery in Parma, which was later moved to a new cemetary in the same city in 1896. --Bart weisser (talk) 20:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Paganini.jpg

Image:Paganini.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot (talk) 06:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Birth

IN THE TEXT:

• Niccolò Paganini was born in Paris, France, on June 23 1778, to Antonio and Teresa, Bocciardo, Paganini.

IN THE BOX

• Born October 27, 1782(1782-10-27) Genoa, Republic of Genoa

No need to say more. Sobreira (parlez) 02:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

How about a consolidated article

There are a lot of details that cannot be verified. I am wondering if there is any interest to consolidate this article. Right now it has good information, but much of it await verification, and is presented incoherently. I would like to see something that is clean. I have contributed to this article before, and I would like to see this progress.--Bart weisser (talk) 20:49, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Watch your reference

It has come to my attention that some of the materials for this article are quoted from "Famous Violinists of To-day and Yesterday" by Henry C. Lahee. Published in 1899 (10th printing 1916) by The Page Company, currently available electronically through Project Gutenberg.

Though it is detailed in many things, there is a lot of incorrectly presented information (even all the way down to the birth date). And that him "hiding" for three years in the patronage of some young lady was unfounded.So the moral of the story is, check your sources.--Bart weisser (talk) 23:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Paganini was one of, if not, the first person to have his portrait photographed

About 35/40 years ago while studying a book on the history of photography it showed a photo taken of Paganini with the caption saying something like "Paganini posed for the first photographed portrait ever taken by Daguerre". I can not find this picture now, and is there any truth to the statement. Lancebon (talk) 11:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

List of Miscellaneous works

I think (but i'm not sure) that the miscellaneus work has an incorrect entry: "Hai Un Bel Pirla" is an idiom in italian and it is not too polite and elegant (search google to get a translation). I doubt that Paganini used it as a title. A search on google doesn't reveal any other information. I see on history that this composition has been removed (and reintroduced) various times from 22 October 2007 till 26 October 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by MStamina (talk • contribs) 15:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll remove it until someone can find a reliable source. Thanks for pointing it out. Graham87 01:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Obscene titles aren't unprecedented in classical music - see Mozart's "Leck mich im Arsch". But if Paganini did create a work with such a title, it would have been mentioned prominently in publications about him, both online and offline. The edit that removed it removed the whole section, so it went practically unnoticed for nearly a year. The edit after the addition of the false information happened five minutes later, so the false info would have been more likely to pass by the watchlists of inattentive editors. Graham87 02:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. The article is B-class, but is lacking some detail on his composing, and his personal life. See my detailed review on the comments page. (By the way, I also think the article needs to have more citable "weasel words" about his greatness from appropriate authorities. Paganini was clearly a giant of his time; in my opinion, the current article understates this.) Magic♪piano 23:48, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Rumours

what about the rumours saying he had a pact with the devil or was devil himself because of his techniques and his cadaveric look? i read somewhere that in Europe that was a legend saying that the devil would come as a violinist and that made things worse, he was treated pretty bad in Belgium and etc. that's an interesting fact.

I read in the big book of brain games by Ivan Moscovich that quote "Although amicable numbers have been the subject of intence study over the emillenia, Nicolo Paganini, and italian schoolboy, discovered the second smallest pair--1,184 and 1210-- in 1866." where could I find if this is true? here is a link to another source http://mathworld.wolfram.com/AmicablePair.html "Nicolò I. Paganini found the small amicable pair (1184, 1210) which had eluded his more illustrious predecessors (Paganini 1866-1867; Dickson 2005, p. 47)." This souce states that this is another person http://everything2.com/e2node/amicable%2520numbers "In 1866, a sixteen year old named Nicolo Paganini (note, not the same person as Niccolo Paganini, violin virtuoso) discovered the second lowest valued pair, (1184,1210), through trial and error." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.52.159 (talk) 17:09, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

Please someone remove the flatulence reference :) In that sentence with no citations it seemed so natural that I spotted it only when I returned to reading it once again later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Juozas Rimas (talk • contribs) 23:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Yikes, good catch! Yes, it's vandalism, and it lasted nearly sixteen months, since October 2007. I only started watching this article last year so I didn't detect it when it happened, even though I had edited it in August 2007. When I first read that text, I thought it was true because I could just imagine Paganini doing that kind of thing with his violin - I know very little about him besides what is in this article, though.

The original text was "horn", which seems to make more sense as the violinist is apparently asked to imitate a horn in Caprice No. 9. It was changed to "fart" in this edit. That edit also changed "fingerings" to "fingering", which is probably vandalism as well (see fingering (sexual act)), so I have changed it back to the plural form along with the word "bowing". A few days after the change from horn to fart, another editor changed fart to flatulence. This error propagated to other Internet sites that use our content, as can be shown by this Google search. More importantly, it might have propagated into any translations of this article for non-English versions of Wikipedia, and that will be much harder to search for and correct. Graham87 04:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Guitar portal template.

Hi, I noticed that there is a guitar portal template that's been added to the page. But considering that Nicolo Paganini mastered and performed on the violin his entire life, this seems a bit odd that there should be a link to guitar portal. I do agree that there is no Violin portal and I suggest the template be replaced by Classical Music template which is more valid. Neokrish 04:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, lets take this back to a "classical" portal template. Paganini was a masterful guitar player. That is evident in the compositions he left behind for guitar. Ana Vidovic, for example, plays several Paganini pieces on the guitar and they are not for the faint of heart! Berlioz could only play two instruments - guitar and flute. Chopin used to compose melodies on a guitar because (a) a piano is just too big to haul around and (b) he couldn't afford one. History has several examples of famous musicians composing for or playing guitar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jconway12 (talk • contribs) 00:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

A masterful player of the guitar no doubt was Paganini. However, despite popularity among guitarists of all sorts, he was still a violinist, first and foremost. The sheer amount of detailed documentation concerning his career as a concert violinist (compared those for guitar) would be more than sufficient to prove the point.--Bart weisser (talk) 00:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Ella Fitzgerald's 'Mr. Paganini'

Is Ella Fitzgerald's song Mr. Paganini referring to Niccolo? --Locano (talk) 05:44, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

First Violin?!

"The only violin Paganini ever owned is known as Cannone Guarnerius, its name given by Paganini to reflect the "cannon" sound it produced. Its strings are nearly on the same plane, as opposed to most violins, the strings of which are distinctly arched to prevent accidentally bowing extra strings. The stringing of the Cannone may have allowed Paganini to play on three or even four strings at once."

I think this statement is false. I know for a fact that Paganini owned at least one violin before Il Cannone which he lost in gambling. I believe it was a Strad but I am not quite sure. I also know Il Cannone was gifted to have by a merchant fan, though I can't remember the exact reference. Whether Paganini owned another violin while owning Il Cannone is unknown to me, but its highly unlikely that he didn't own any other violin at the time. We know at least he bought the Villaume copy for one of his students.--Karmish 19:44, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that "its strings are nearly on the same plane" needs a citation. Although I'm not necessarily contesting the truth of the statement, the string angle is a function of the neck of the violin; the neck can (and often is) be replaced after the construction of the instrument. Can anyone find a reference that Paganini actually played on near-horizontal strings? Thanks, --208.81.93.70 02:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The quote almost certainly refers to the arch in the strings produced by the bridge, as per the reference to the ability to play on 3 or 4 strings at once; and not the neck angle. Of course, either is alterable after the original construction; in fact the arch of the strings would be simply a matter of either replacing the bridge or reshaping the existing bridge. Wschart (talk) 21:26, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Niccolò Paganini/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Niccolò Paganini: 2008-11-21== This is an assessment of article Niccolò Paganini by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? Good ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Good, but it is unclear when he began composing. ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Good, although details of what (at least major works) he composed when are not given. Article is also sketchy on personal details. (Womanizer, gambler, yes. Any known children? Long-term mistresses or wife? Who are/were the mentioned heirs of his legacy?) ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. Good. Listing is long enought that it should probably be multi-column, or split into separate article. ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Adequate. See summary for additional comments. ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) OK. Article could use more images (mainly in the extended footer material). ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has reference, but few inline citations ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Section discussing his compositions should be separated from bio Works list should either be multi-column or separated into another article Lead is too short for an article of this length ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE) ===Summary=== This is a fairly nice article about a larger-than-life figure in 19th-century music. The article gives a reasonably good overview of his career as a professional musician. It is sketchy on personal details, especially in his adult life. (For example, we don't know if he had any long-term relationships, children, etc.) There is also relatively little detail on his composition history: what he wrote when. A composer bio should mention when he begins composing, and discuss the circumstance, if known, of the composition of (at least some of) his major works. The section describing his music should be separately headed. It is short, but may not necessarily merit more mention, as Paganini was really more notable for his playing. I find the discussion of his influence on violin technique understated. Discussion on the talk page indicates a past tussle on the subject; perhaps there is more citable commentary (especially from a wider array of violinists than already cited) to bring to the table (both modern and 19th-century) to emphasize this. He was great and influential at the time; someone must have written words to that effect sometime between 1850 and 1920. The article is generally laid out well; its lead is short for an article of its length; it could use more images (not necessarily of Paganini, perhaps of one of his violins). It has only a modest number of inline citations; this is a significant barrier to GA/FA status. This is a B-class article; the figure is sufficiently engaging that an effort should be made to raise its quality. Magic♪piano 23:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 12:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 15:28, 1 May 2016 (UTC)