Talk:Nellie massacre

Who was responsible?

The article mentions a number of people being charged, who were they? Specifically were they members of the police or of a particular political group, etc. Kevink707 (talk) 20:09, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

The first sentence says, the massacre was carried out by Indian BSF. Is it true? BSF stands for Boarder Security Force. Later mentioned it was by mob attackers. Wahabdr (talk • contribs) abdulwahab 10:35, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

(This is from a non-Muslim-non-Hindu-non-Tribal-non-Indian-non-Bangladeshi scholar) I edited the first sentence and the "perpetrator" item on the right and added a reference to the only scholar work on the issue. The involvement of several local villagers is certain, but their identity and the identity of their patrons is a matter of debate (made difficult by the official report being kept unpublished) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coleshvar (talk • contribs) 15:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

I have removed material cited from Blogspot, Milligazette, and Ummah dot com. If you disagree with this edit, please discuss why any of these sources meet WP:RS.Pectore^talk 00:38, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Recent revert

I just reverted the "illegal immigrants" bit, for two main reasons. First, an image does not under any circumstances qualify as a source. Second, those "articles" don't use the term illegal; they say Bengali immigrants, who had been given voting status (and hence had been legalized, in a sense). Regardless, not good enough sourcing, not by some distance. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:15, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

@Prodigyhk: You reverted me before even reading my message here, which is the very epitome of WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. Read this first. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Error from my side. Did not check TP before reverting. Peace :) Prodigyhk (talk) 03:25, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Most likely you were born post 1983 :) or not from India ! Please understand, this was ethnic cleansing based on language and not religion. This is similar to the Tamil-Sinhala problem of Sri Lanka. Request you to either check with seniors who have knowledge of 1983 (or) check archives in your local library since most of the actual records were prior to internet. Prodigyhk (talk) 03:21, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Utterly irrelevant. If you want to label them "illegal," you need a source calling them "illegal." Even your images do not do that, and they do not count as sources anyway. The sources in the article simply say Muslim migrants were slaughtered. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:24, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Vana, These images are valid sources to be used in an WP article. If you do not agree, please check archives. This was not violence based on religion, but on race. Prodigyhk (talk) 03:32, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

What archives do you keep talking about? If you have access to the actual article, then you could provide a real source, couldn't you? In any case, as I said already, the articles do not call the victims "illegal." The most succinct version of what the article calls them is "Muslim migrants" which is what I have used. The reason the images give for the massacre are objections to voting rights; not ethnic conflict. Moreover, whatever the reasons may have been, it doesn't change the fact that the victims were Muslim. "Bengali" is not an ethnicity; people of many ethnicities speak Bengali. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:39, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

made a compromise edit which cover both our views on this. Hope you agree Prodigyhk (talk) 03:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Notice that you have not accepted compromise provided.Prodigyhk (talk) 03:46, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

No, I did not, because you insist on the "illegal" label, which you have not yet provided a source for. The images do not contain that word. None of the sources do. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:50, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok. further compromise suggestion. remove the word "illegal" and keep the rest " Bengali speaking muslim migrants from Bangladesh" Prodigyhk (talk) 03:53, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

closing now for today. If you are ok, with the new suggested compromise. Please edit the article and include same. If not, we can discuss later. cheers Prodigyhk (talk) 03:54, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I am leaving it as "migrants," because it is not specified when the migrated; if it was before 1971, then they were Pakistani migrants, and if it was before 1947, well, they were internal migrants. We cannot mention that level of detail, so migrants is appropriate. I have left the images in, though, because even though they are useless as sources they are interesting as images. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:02, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

To keep moving, I worked at accommodating your point of view and suggested solution. But, you seem to stuck and not understanding. Read the various sources that are already listed in the article. All clearly state these migrants are from "Bangladesh" / "Bengali speaking". These are facts as represented in the sources. Prodigyhk (talk) 16:28, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

"Bengali" and "Bangladeshi" are not the same thing. They say Bengali, which I am okay with including. They do not say Bangladeshi, and they certainly don't say "illegal." Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:07, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok. that is a start " Bengali speaking muslim migrants ". If you are ok, do include this. Prodigyhk (talk) 00:43, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

"Muslim"

The word Muslim certainly appeared in the article, because the victims were primarily of that religion. The term was edited out by a newbie [1] without any policy-bound reason. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:06, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Violence against muslims template

The Nellie Massacre is described in several works on violence against Muslims in India, it is considered one of the main instances of anti-muslim pogroms. That is why the Massacre is included in the template about Violence against Muslims, and since the template includes the Nellie Massacre it is natural that the template is found in the article about the Nellie Massacre, so that readers can easily find links to articles about similar events. regardless of the fact that the massacre had a complex set of motivations which included both nationalist, political and ethnic tension as well as religious tensions. Secondly religion and ethnicity are obviously tied closely together in India and most other places so that distinguishing between ethnic riots and religious riots is impossible.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:55, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

It was not an anti-muslim pogroms. Assam has its own Assamese Muslims, who had not been prosecuted in this or other incidents. This violence was against immigrants from Bangladesh, who happened to be Muslims. Prodigyhk (talk) 18:03, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

It was still violence against Muslims. And lots of sources mention the religious component in the incident and the incidents role in polariziong the religious situation in Assam. Removing the remplate is unwarranted. We are both at 3rr now so dont remove it again. You boldly rmeoved it but your edit was reverted, the template stays in untill there is a consensus to remove it.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:08, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

·maunus Edit warring is not helpful - Follow procedure. Remove the template. Discuss on the talk page. Heavens will not fall by taking time for having discussion with co-editors to decide the right direction for the article. Prodigyhk (talk) 18:13, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

No, editwarring is not helpful So stop doing it. The procedure is that when someone reverts your bold edit you discuss. I reverted your bold edit and started the discussion. You kept removing the template. But no, the status quo which is to include the template, stands untill there is a consensus to remove it.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Points against using the template are

• There exists indigenous Assamese Muslims who have not been prosecuted during the Assam agitations
• this massacre targeted immigrants from Bangladesh.

Here is one document you can read to understand about the indigenous Vs immigrant problem faced in Assam.

• The immigration issue in Assam and conflicts around it. Chandan Kumar Sharma, Department of Sociology, Tezpur University, Assam, India

Maunus, Good night Prodigyhk (talk) 18:54, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

The fact that one guy (or even many guys) describe the riot as being primarily motivated by something else, e.g. "antiforeigner sentiment" does not change the fact that there are ample sources saying that religion was a factor, and it also does not change the fact that the result of the massacre was 3000 muslims being killed by non-muslims, making it one of the most salient examples of violence against Muslims in the history of India. There is no valid justification for removing the template.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:00, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Sources provided by user:Maunus

1. "Nellie mentioned as "one of the main ones" under the heading antimuslim-violence
2. Report on communal violence in India: The country then witnessed a large pogrom against Muslims in Ahmedabad (1969); ghastly riots in Bhiwandi (1970) and Jamshedpur (1979); repeated incidents in Hyderabad; unbridled violence in Moradabad (1980) and Biharsharif (1981); huge massacres in Nellie (1983);
3. Report on Hindu-Musolim communal riots: "A massive attack against Muslims took place in Nellie (Assam) in the Nagaon district and in other parts of the state during the February 1983 assembly elections."
4. "A series of major communal riots .... in 1983 Nellie in Assam saw a riot in which more than 3000 Bengali muslims were killed"
5. "However, in 1983 the clashes involved thousands of people and included an anti-Muslim streak, which was rarely seen in Assam"

User:Maunus, All the sources you have provided clearly identify the victims as Bangladeshi muslims. The prime factor for this tragedy was their ethnicity and not religion. Prodigyhk (talk) 18:53, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

All the sources clearly describe this episode of violence as being partly motivated by antimuslim entiment and as being one of the maion episodes of antimuslim violence in India.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:04, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

you can not use this template if the source says it - "as being partly motivated by antimuslim entiment". Please stick to facts. This tragedy was result of anti-foreigner clashes that happened in Assam. All the sources are clear on this. Prodigyhk (talk) 19:15, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Prodigy, you are splitting hairs. There are a number of sources which say that the religion of the victims was a predominant factor in their killing, and that the victims were exclusively Muslim. This is much more than sufficient to include the template here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:32, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Prodigyhk, The violence was against "immigrants" -- that was the ascertained reason. It wasn't because of their faith and everyone suspected of illegal migration was attacked indiscriminately. Do you have any reliable source saying the "resident" Muslims were attacked? --AmritasyaPutra^T 02:43, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

You don't need one; there are ample sources saying that Muslims were attacked for their religion, which is what the template is all about. Are you arguing that because they were immigrants, there could be no other reason for attacking them? Vanamonde93 (talk) 02:55, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I am asking Do you have any reliable source saying the "resident" Muslims were attacked? The reason of the attack was clearly illegal immigration. --AmritasyaPutra^T 03:01, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

The sources say otherwise. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:03, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately those sources are wrong. Makiko Kimura is an authority on the Nellie massacre, who spent 10 years studying it and wrote a book on it. According to her, it was an election-related violence, with clashes between those who supported the election and those who opposed it. Who was responsible for the election? Well, it was Indira Gandhi, who was a communalist par excellence in the 1980's. Kautilya3 (talk) 09:41, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

References

What actually happened

The article mentions the background and result of the massacre, but not what actually happened. How were the 2191 people killed? Were they shot, beaten to death? Were they killed by mobs or organized paramilitary forces? These details need to be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.153.19.61 (talk) 10:03, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

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Hindu victims

Tagging user Kautilya3. The 10th source on the page clearly states that 1800 Bengali Hindus were killed in the massacre as well. Hence the page should be edited to a communal massacre page mentioning both Hindu and muslim victims. BomaiyukBatt (talk) 13:43, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The sentence is "In one day, 1,800 Muslims of Bengali origin were slaughtered..." The victims are clearly Muslims and not Hindus. Chaipau (talk) 14:31, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

BomaiyukBatt, your ability to seriously misread/misinterpret sources is quite troubling. Unless this improves, I will have to approach the admins to bar you from editing. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:54, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok I'm sorry. I didn't read the source correctly but only the quote added on the page. Looks like someone intentionally added the wrong quote. I'll correct it. BomaiyukBatt (talk) 16:20, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok, so, it wasn't your fault. But be sure to double check the sources when something looks fishy. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

References

Recent edits

I did not notice it at first, but this edit is definitely vandalism. It inserts a point of view into the cited quote part of the reference. This is definitely not an innocent mistake by a new editor, who incidently created the account today. I have not been following this article as often in recent times (RL), but this seems to be a pattern. Alerting Kautilya3. Chaipau (talk) 13:10, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

I had to revert yet another attempt to insert unsubstantiated claims made in these edits. Chaipau (talk) 15:08, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Unsourced Edits

User:User:45.50.164.192 you cannot be putting random numbers in Nellie massacre without reliable sources sources and you should not be reverting to your preferred version. Untamed1910 (talk) 02:35, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

This article is wrong

The editors are clearly politically biased, and are trying to smear the Tiwa community. This is the death and brutal murder of true reporting, any decent human being who is reading this article can disregard any information mentioned in this article.

Its a huge shame that Wikipedia has turned into a political tool. People who are clearly not Assamese, and definitely not from Nellie are now banning indigenous people from editing this article. Shame. Porkmarket (talk) 07:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I will mention this article in my class

On why you shouldnt be reading Wikipedia and form opinions. This is the death of unbiased reporting. A huge shame. Porkmarket (talk) 07:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)