Talk:National Center on Sexual Exploitation

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Incitement of violence online

@GBRV: An account is whitewashing organizations mentioned in the new Vice article, which describes the incitement of violence online by NCOSE and Exodus Cry. Changes reverted as no rationale for hiding this information from a known national source from the public was provided. EffortMoose (talk) 22:14, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

‎Removing unsubstantiated claims (no link to NCSE was proven in the article) is not "whitewashing". Wikipedia's rules do not allow unsubstantiated claims against living people. ThadeusOfNazereth's edits are an improvement, but that Vice article is still problematic because it alleges that Neo-Nazi posts with no established connection to this organization are somehow proof that the organization itself is inspiring death threats - a non-sequitur. Additionally, we're not supposed to just toss in every single allegation made by every single media outlet, especially since Wikipedia is not the "daily news" but rather an encyclopedia that is mostly supposed to cite academic sources while covering the overall sweep of events rather than a day-by-day accounting of what each side happens to be claiming that day. This is basic stuff. GBRV (talk) 19:55, 14 April 2021 (UTC) WP:SOCK comments stricken[reply]

I completely agree with GBRV. EffortMoose's edits do not seem to follow Wikipedia policy. HelpfulPi (talk) 20:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

The site described is accurate as to the nature and history of the organization. Morality in Media is operated as a lobby and as such I feel that it is pertinent to identify the organization as represented by its' chief executive, Patrick A. Truman, as a registered lobby. Thank you, GCM

Which is fine if your reference actually did that. I reverted it once before because it didn't actually lead to anything that identified Mr. Truman or MIM as lobbyists. Is there a better link you could provide? Wikipelli ^Talk 02:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified (February 2018)

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Patrick Trueman

This reference appeared in the introduction https://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1943664/yahoo-slammed-porn-sites

I have deleted it. It refers to him as a lobbyist (a) in 2001 and (b) for the American Family Association. patsw (talk) 03:22, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mission Statement

This is one of the strangest editing disputes I have had. There's a slight difference in wording of the identical idea from this organization's main page and its about page.

https://endsexualexploitation.org

EXPOSING THE SEAMLESS CONNECTION BETWEEN ALL FORMS OF SEXUAL EXPLOITATION. (their caps, not mine)

So my edit makes the mission ...which seeks to expose the seamless connection between all forms of sexual exploitation.

ChiveFungi chose from

https://endsexualexploitation.org/about/

The National Center on Sexual Exploitation (NCOSE) is the leading national organization exposing the links between all forms of sexual exploitation such as child sexual abuse, prostitution, sex trafficking and the public health crisis of pornography

CF's edit changes the mission to ...exposing the links between all forms of sexual exploitation

So what's the difference in meaning here that justifies this edit? patsw (talk) 16:46, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't clear to me whether your version was a quotation or paraphrasing. My intention was not to change the quote but to put in a quote that's obviously a quote (i.e. with quotation marks and a citation). The one on the about page just happened to be the one I found. Feel free to use any other quote (updating the citation if necessary). --ChiveFungi (talk) 18:20, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is NCOSE part of the the Christian Right?

Or does the Christian Left opposed the goals of the NCOSE?

It seems that sexual exploitation is common ground for all Christians as a matter of social justice. The characterization of NCOSE as on the right politically seems without evidence from the web site itself. If NCOSE is on the right, is every non-profit opposed to sexual exploitation on the right? Is the Me Too movement a movement of the right? Is the Left opposed (or indifferent) to ending sexual exploitation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patsw (talk • contribs)

I removed it from See Also. I couldn't find any source declaring it to be part of the Christian Right. If there's a source or even a reasoned opinion for relating it to the Christian Right, I'm open to discussion. patsw (talk) 20:39, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I simply condensed the see also section to just include a link to religious views on pornography as I feel that is more appropriate Mfernflower (talk) 04:38, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

DSM-5-TR

DSM-5-TR, incoming in March 2022, is expected to give the lie to the pornography public health crisis, and thus to the 16 US states legislatures which adopted such resolutions. Sorry, elected politicians, US psychiatrists have spit upon your parliamentary resolutions. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:52, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Care to unpack this a bit for those of us not in the loop? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:14, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@HandThatFeeds: Yup, Nicole Prause has tweeted that DSM-5-TR rejects porn addiction, sex addiction and compulsive sexual behavior disorder.

Namely, DSM-5 was revised (version + "TR"). Still no pornography, sex addiction, sex compulsion, etc. There remains insufficient evidence of the existence of these as independent pathologies. psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.pn.2022.1.20 tgeorgescu (talk) 19:42, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, interesting. Good to know, thank you! — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:54, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@HandThatFeeds: DSM-5-TR, published in March 2022, does not recognize a diagnosis of sexual addiction (which would include internet pornography viewing).^[1]^[2] tgeorgescu (talk) 15:33, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This means that the scientific debate thereupon has been closed until the 2030s. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:07, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@X-Editor: DSM-5-TR gives the lie to pornography as a public health crisis.

American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, and American Society of Addiction Medicine do not recognize such "public health crisis". tgeorgescu (talk) 23:42, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you replying to me? I never said anything here. X-Editor (talk) 02:44, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@X-Editor: You had removed the text with DSM-5-TR from the article. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:51, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't directly relevant to the group and the DSM-5-TR hadn't been released yet. But if the TR says that porn addiction is not a public health crisis, then this should be noted. X-Editor (talk) 18:03, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to ask, Would it not make sense here to add that the ICD-11, which mental health professionals can use in the US, does list "use of pornography" as one possible clinical feature of "Compulsive Sexual Disorder"? @HandThatFeeds Cadbury333 (talk) 16:19, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea why this was addressed to me. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:51, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thought you were part of the conversation as per the above. My error. Forgive me. Cadbury333 (talk) 17:02, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cadbury333: ICD-10 is in many countries (including US) the law of the land. ICD-11 may become the law of the land in countries which choose to do so (after January 1, 2022).

The problem is that the US psychiatric diagnosis and medical insurance system is de facto based upon the DSM. So, insurance companies won't pay if the diagnosis is not put according to the criteria from the DSM. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:10, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Agreed. (I know well the use of the DSM by US insurance companies.) But the issue in this particular passage is whether or not porn use can rise to the level of a diagnosable disorder, and it can according to the ICD. Therefore, I propose that this should be noted in the entry especially since the US is the only country that does not rely on the ICD. Cadbury333 (talk) 23:18, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cadbury333: ICD-10 is the de jure standard. DSM is the de facto standard. And for ICD-11 you will have to wait.

Yup, that applies to US. In the Netherlands there is a difference between diagnosis and classification. DSM is used for classifications, not for diagnosis. Dutch medical insurance companies require classification according to the DSM.

Further, CSBD is neither sex addiction, nor porn addiction, but an impulse control disorder. It requires the subject to have suffered "objective" damage from it. "Subjective" damage like moral-religious disapproval is not enough for being diagnosed with such disorder. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:39, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have just removed all the content from the lede which was cited to sources not discussing the NCSE. Article ledes aren't a platform for editorialising either about the subject, or on broader topics. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:33, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent solution. Cadbury333 (talk) 16:35, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ American Psychiatric Association (2022). "Conditions for Further Study". Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR(tm)). G - Reference,Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series. American Psychiatric Association Publishing. p. 916. ISBN 978-0-89042-576-3. Excessive use of the Internet not involving playing of online games (e.g., excessive use of social media, such as Facebook; viewing pornography online) is not considered analogous to Internet gaming disorder, and future research on other excessive uses of the Internet would need to follow similar guidelines as suggested herein. Excessive gambling online may qualify for a separate diagnosis of gambling disorder.
^ American Psychiatric Association (2022). "Substance-Related and Addictive Disorders". Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR(tm)). G - Reference,Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series. American Psychiatric Association Publishing. p. 543. ISBN 978-0-89042-576-3. In addition to the substance-related disorders, this chapter also includes gambling disorder, reflecting evidence that gambling behaviors activate reward systems similar to those activated by drugs of abuse and that produce some behavioral symptoms that appear comparable to those produced by the substance use disorders. Other excessive behavioral patterns, such as Internet gaming (see "Conditions for Further Study"), have also been described, but the research on these and other behavioral syndromes is less clear. Thus, groups of repetitive behaviors, sometimes termed behavioral addictions (with subcategories such as "sex addiction," "exercise addiction," and "shopping addiction"), are not included because there is insufficient peer-reviewed evidence to establish the diagnostic criteria and course descriptions needed to identify these behaviors as mental disorders.

The medical community

The medical community does not support the idea of pornography as a public health crisis: Rothman, Emily F. (26 August 2021). "Pornography as a US Public Health Problem". Pornography and Public Health. Oxford University Press. pp. 1–15. doi:10.1093/oso/9780190075477.003.0001. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:38, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've not got access to the source: does it discuss the NCOSE? This is supposed to be an article on that specific organisation, rather than a general article on 'Pornography and health'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:10, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AndyTheGrump: No, it is not about it. But the health crisis is their proposal. An explanation of how scientists have reacted to pseudoscientific theories should be prominently included WP:PSCI. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:20, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The suggestion that pornography affects public health in a negative way is hardly confined to this specific organisation, as I am quite sure you are well aware. As for 'pseudoscientific theories', do you have any sources actually describing the NCOSE as promoting such, or is this just your own opinion? Because without such sources, Wikipedia isn't going to suggest that they are. We already have articles on the broader topic of pornography, and of the debate about possible medical and social effects, and content not sourced to material discussing the NCOSE belongs there, not here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:50, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WebGroup Czech Republic/XVideos

This is a civil law matter. As argued on live TV about Rupert Murdoch's settlement in respect to Dominion Voting Systems, the civil law does not operate with "guilty" or "not guilty", but with "show me the money". tgeorgescu (talk) 22:26, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Logo

logo is missing. unless it is a non-PD. Lellyhatesanimals (talk) 05:19, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Linked at anti-gay campaigns in Uganda

According to Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/30/us-far-right-group-influencing-anti-gay-policy-africa?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other 2600:100B:B01A:6FE0:8541:109E:FD92:7418 (talk) 18:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should NCOSE Dec 2023 response to its Anti-LGBT activites be included?

I noticed that the article from Vice which shows NCOSE's ties with extreme-right and anti-gay organizations were included, as well as their campaign against same-sex marriage, comprehensive sex education, etc. back when they were Operation Yorkville and Morality in Media before 2015.

I haven't seen any reference to NCOSE's press release (seemingly a response to their anti-lgtbq history being brought to light) in this article however, titled "NCOSE’s Commitment to the LGBTQ+ Community". Some snippets from it are:

-There have been assertions that our former name was associated with a campaign against Disney advocating that benefits for LGBTQ+ employees not be extended to their partners. We have not been able to identify record of this in our archives. However, if MIM was a part of this campaign, it starkly contradicted our values and stances, even back then. We want to make it clear that such a campaign goes against our current principles and beliefs.

-We found in our archives a press statement arguing that homosexuality is connected to crime. This article is one we utterly disavow, as it contradicts what Morality in Media represented even then. It certainly does not represent NCOSE now.

I get that it has POV since it is a NCOSE press release, but it seems noteworthy to include given that we have detailed much of their pre-2015 campaign activities throughout the article. Where would be an appropriate section to add it if the consensus is to include it? 2601:1C0:4C01:5A30:B09D:169C:77CC:DED7 (talk) 05:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MANDY applies, IMO. If their rebuttal were picked up in secondary reliable sources, I'd say it's worth considering, but a press release isn't going to work here. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[American_Psychiatric_Association_2022_ch._29-1] American Psychiatric Association (2022). "Conditions for Further Study". Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR(tm)). G - Reference,Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series. American Psychiatric Association Publishing. p. 916. ISBN 978-0-89042-576-3. Excessive use of the Internet not involving playing of online games (e.g., excessive use of social media, such as Facebook; viewing pornography online) is not considered analogous to Internet gaming disorder, and future research on other excessive uses of the Internet would need to follow similar guidelines as suggested herein. Excessive gambling online may qualify for a separate diagnosis of gambling disorder.

[American_Psychiatric_Association_2022_ch._19-2] American Psychiatric Association (2022). "Substance-Related and Addictive Disorders". Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR(tm)). G - Reference,Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series. American Psychiatric Association Publishing. p. 543. ISBN 978-0-89042-576-3. In addition to the substance-related disorders, this chapter also includes gambling disorder, reflecting evidence that gambling behaviors activate reward systems similar to those activated by drugs of abuse and that produce some behavioral symptoms that appear comparable to those produced by the substance use disorders. Other excessive behavioral patterns, such as Internet gaming (see "Conditions for Further Study"), have also been described, but the research on these and other behavioral syndromes is less clear. Thus, groups of repetitive behaviors, sometimes termed behavioral addictions (with subcategories such as "sex addiction," "exercise addiction," and "shopping addiction"), are not included because there is insufficient peer-reviewed evidence to establish the diagnostic criteria and course descriptions needed to identify these behaviors as mental disorders.

[1]

[2]