Talk:Natio Hungarica

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book searches

we should expand this article and not delete or redirect. its a lot of books: http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=natio+hungarica#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbo=1&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=natio+hungarica&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=5915f5820557ebd8&biw=1680&bih=839

also about Hungarus: http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=natio+hungarica#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbo=1&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=hungarus&aq=f&aqi=g-l1g-lm2&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=5915f5820557ebd8&biw=1680&bih=839 --Samofi (talk) 06:30, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect

The article was redirected[1] by administrator Dbachmann. I support this action. Hobartimus (talk) 22:38, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with the redirect is that the article Name of Hungary does not include an explanation of "Natio Hungarica", so it's confusing. I actually agree that the old article was an example of coatracking, but the issue still needs to be fixed properly.

I looked at the reference and it includes:

1. The Multiethnic Character of the Hungarian Kingdom in the Later Middle Ages by L. S. DOMONKOS

THE NATIO HUNGARICA

The Hungarian kingdom in the late Middle Ages was not a national state in the modern sense of the word, but a multiethnic political unit in which the Magyar nobility held the dominant position. In this respect Hungary is not unique, for the medieval period does not offer examples of national states. Hungary had within its borders a large number of non-Magyar inhabitants in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries who were nevertheless members of the "Natio Hungarica" or "Natio Hungarorum," irrespective of the ethnic background. The terms of "Natio Hungarica" or "Natio Hungarorum" should be viewed basically as indicators of geographic and not ethnic origin. An individual belonged to the "Hungarian Nation" if he or she resided under the authority of the king of Hungary, i.e., in the lands of the Hungarian crown.[1]

1. Jenõ Szûcs, Nemzet és történelem: tanulmányok [Nation and History: Studies] (Budapest, 1974), pp. 28--29.

The first author could be Leslie S. Domonkos, who is mentioned once on Wikipedia in connection to György Bónis. The referenced author, Jenõ Szûcs, seems to have been used in a few other Wikipedia articles as a reference. So is this information correct and reliable, and if so can it be added to the article Name of Hungary? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 21:17, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with you however page of name of Hungary is not a proper solution in my opinion. I think page of Nobility in the Kingdom of Hungary would be better place for it, because we can not use Natio Hungarica in connection with peoples of Kingdom of Hungary. This expression means entirely the Nobility and the clergy and nothing else. I created a section there for Natio Hungarica. That would be better solution if the redirection pointed to Nobility in the Kingdom of Hungary.Fakirbakir (talk) 21:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the ADMINISTRATORS

I have no right to decide whether this page has to exist or not. But please, It is ridiculous and annoying to see what is happening. I think this page is equal with the Nobility in the Kingdom of Hungary and the content of the page belongs there in my opinion.Fakirbakir (talk) 09:00, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Concept of natio Hungarica is not connected only with nobility. See my new source. But the topic is connected with nobility in hungaria. btw you should read WP:NOT before you write something like this coz it violates the wikipedias policy - wikipedia is not your blog, soap box or place for your opinions --Samofi (talk) 12:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was willing to contribute on this page, however 2 administrators recommended to redirect this page. You are the only one who violates the policy of wikipedia. Fakirbakir (talk) 12:36, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what this "dispute" is about. Nobody disputes that the term "Natio Hungarica" exists. This doesn't mean it needs a standalone page on Wikipedia. For a discussion of the term as such, you should go to wikt:Natio Hungarica. The suggested content for this page appears to just discuss the term as it was used in the medieval kingdom, and as it pertained to modern Hungarian nationalism. There is no source dedicated to an identifiable concept of "Natio Hungarica". What we seem to have is a source on Multiple Nationalism: National Concepts in Nineteenth-Century Hungary. Therefore, the encyclopedic topic that is being discussed here appears to belong under

Name of Hungary (for the Latin term as used in the Middle Ages)
Hungarian nationalism (for the essay about how the modern state developed out of medieval society)

conflating these two topics into a page called "Natio Hungarica" strikes me as obvious WP:SYNTH as long as we do not have a WP:RS that confirms the unity of a subject best identified as "Natio Hungarica". --dab (𒁳) 07:58, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I opened this section because this page sometimes exits, sometimes not and that was the initially subject of dispute. Natio Hungarica means NATIO OF NOBLES and the meaning did not change during the centuries however the old concept of Natio Hungarica mixed with new national thinking from the Modern age. Natio Hungarica, which derived its own historical legitimacy from the Magyar warrior tribes that founded the Kingdom.

The best place for this subject is Nobility in the Kingdom of Hungary in my opinion.Fakirbakir (talk) 09:33, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You may be correct. Note that since this is (now) the talk page of a redirect, the chance of raising attention of involved editors will be very low. This whole conversation would best be moved to an alternative talk page where more thorough discussion can be achieved, it may be Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hungary or Talk:Nobility in the Kingdom of Hungary or Talk:Name of Hungary - but it really should not be here. Ronhjones ^(Talk) 19:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is moved to Talk:Nobility in the Kingdom of Hungary. Thank you for suggestion.Fakirbakir (talk) 20:05, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since that article already includes a discussion of that, I pointed the redirect there. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 22:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Natio Hungarica has nothing to do with nationalism

It's a concept of the feudal/medieval Hungary and is not related to the 19th century or later developments in modern nationalism. Please stop conflating things, there are no sources to back this up. Delete the second! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.40.89 (talk) 09:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]