Talk:Natalie Clifford Barney

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Two remaining CN tags

The two citation needed tags remaining are:

1. 'This gender-balanced structure was not carried through on the book's packaging, which listed eight of the male writers then added "... and some women".'

   I suspect that this is some light OR, based on the image of the cover. If that's the case, I'd suggest keeping the sentence but trimming the first clause. "The book's packaging listed ..." with a citation to the book itself.

2. "Of these, the three longest relationships were with de Gramont, Brooks, and Wilde; from 1927, she was involved with all three of them simultaneously, a situation that ended only with Wilde's death. Her shorter affairs, such as those with Colette and Lucie Delarue-Mardrus, often evolved into lifelong friendships."

   Tough to verify as written. That her relationships with de Gramont and Brooks were her longest and most important is easily verifiable (Rodriguez, for sure). Could we replace this with some different, sourced "overview of her relationships" material?

Thanks, Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 15:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

I tend to agree with your suspicion about the "light OR", as I haven't found any secondary sources commenting upon it. XOR'easter (talk) 20:32, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

I also can't find any secondary sources commenting on it; while it is obviously true, it's not clear to me what the relevance is (is this a decision Barney made? Cover designs decisions aren't solely up to the author, and often have very limited authorial input!) Given that sources I've looked at don't comment on it, I'm removing it as undue weight and synthesis; if someone wants to defend its inclusion and make its relevance to the rest of the article more clear, they're welcome to find sources discussing it! Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:23, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Thanks. XOR'easter (talk) 02:09, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Last CN tag

"Of these, the three longest relationships were with de Gramont, Brooks, and Wilde; from 1927, she was involved with all three of them simultaneously, a situation that ended only with Wilde's death."

True, as far as I can tell. Rodriguez focuses on de Gramont and Brooks, calling them "her two long-term relationships (p. 284) and "the two major loves of her adult life" (p. 294) but seems to relegate Wilde down a tier. Schenkar's book is about Wilde and lumps her into a sort of major trifecta (p. 156). I haven't been able to find a source that pulls it all together the way our article does. If we remove the line, the three still get prominent treatment, with a subsection each. We lose a little summary. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 05:08, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, but the line in question reads to me like a summary of the following subsections which is supported by their content and doesn't need a footnote of its own. It's only making a statement about chronology, not who was a "major love". XOR'easter (talk) 01:35, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't disagree. I see now I was experiencing some text blindness, and there is, in fact, no comment on which were "major loves". Remove the tag? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:40, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Seems justifiable; I've gone ahead and done that. XOR'easter (talk) 01:49, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

If we're summarizing content in ways that sources do not, we have a classic SYNTH problem, so I removed that portion. [1] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Dolly Wilde

This section needs expansion or rewriting. Right now, it includes biographical detail on Wilde, but little information on her relationship with Barney. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 15:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

The broad beats of the Barney-Wilde saga are now included. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:52, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Small stuff

1. Page number references need to be standardized.
2. Could we consider using Template:harvnb instead of plain-text page number references? With this many sources and citations, hyperlinks could really help the reader.
3. I think all the MOS:LQ stuff is fixed but would appreciate a second opinion.
4. Colette could probably use some introduction as more than just Vivien's friend and neighbor.
5. Needs a pass for duplicate wikilinks.

Thanks, Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 15:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

I would suggest {{sfn}} rather than {{harvnb}} because it automatically deals with duplicate refs, but I would be happy with either and if consensus to change this develops I would be happy to implement.

I don't see any MOS:LQ issues. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 15:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

sfn sounds great. I agree we should wait on more affirmative consensus, though I see SandyGeorgia had the same thought at FAR. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 15:58, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

SFN !! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:00, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

It's now been a couple days and we have three SFN fans with no objections. XOR'easter, want to weigh in? Otherwise, I say we go for it. I'd be happy to do it, but Caeciliusinhorto already volunteered! Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 03:29, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

No objection on my part. XOR'easter (talk) 04:26, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I've done a first pass at sfnification; there's a bit more tidying up which needs doing still. My usual practice would be to put the text notes (e.g. #102 as of this revision) in a separate "notes" section using {{efn}} templates – see e.g. Brothers Poem) for an example of how I normally do things). Is that okay, or does anyone else want to advance a preferred style? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 18:10, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I'd be fine with a "Notes" / "References" / "Works cited" arrangement. XOR'easter (talk) 18:55, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I think all the small stuff above is wrapped up. Making a note here to do a final "remove all Oxford commas" pass once I'm more willing to sacrifice good sense at the altar of MOS:RETAIN. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:43, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

SG review

Sentence needing attention (either lose second half or split in two?) She and her younger sister Laura attended Les Ruches, a French boarding school in Fontainebleau, France, founded by feminist Marie Souvestre, who also founded Allenswood Academy, in Wimbledon, then outside London, which was attended by such notables as Eleanor Roosevelt. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:09, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Done. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 03:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

• Why do we move from 1899 de Pougy to 1893 Palmer? Also, change in tense: As young adults in Paris they shared an apartment at 4, rue Chalgrin, and eventually taking their own residences in Neuilly. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:14, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Tense fix is done. How would you feel about ending Early life right before de Pougy and then creating a new Early relationships section with Palmer, de Pougy, and Vivien as subsections? Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 03:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  I don't know her life enough to opine; whatever you think best. Was there a reason de Pougy was originally added to Early life, and then we switch back to 1893? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:25, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Now re-organized. I don't know the reason for the old way. My tamest speculation says the goal was to keep info on Barney's sexuality together in Early life. Publications about her relationship with de Pougy were a public coming out of sorts, I guess, and we do get a valuable Barney quote on her own sexuality as a result of it all. I don't think the thematic connection is enough to counter the benefits of clear chronology. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 03:29, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

• Wow, one sentence: Other visitors to the salon during the 1920s included French writers Jeanne Galzy,[68] André Gide, Anatole France, Max Jacob, Louis Aragon and Jean Cocteau along with English-language writers Ford Madox Ford, W. Somerset Maugham, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Sinclair Lewis, Sherwood Anderson, Thornton Wilder, T. S. Eliot and William Carlos Williams and moreover, German poet Rainer Maria Rilke, Bengali poet Rabindranath Tagore (the first Nobel laureate from Asia), Romanian aesthetician and diplomat Matila Ghyka, journalist Janet Flanner (also known as Genêt, who set the New Yorker style), journalist, activist and publisher Nancy Cunard, publishers Caresse and Harry Crosby, publisher Blanche Knopf,[1] art collector and patron Peggy Guggenheim, Sylvia Beach (the bookstore owner who published James Joyce's Ulysses), painters Tamara de Lempicka and Marie Laurencin and dancer Isadora Duncan.[69] And why moreover? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:26, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  I took the easy path and broke the sentence up without major changes. I would prefer to trim, though the temptation is just to keep the names I recognize. Of course, I'd have to leave out William Carlos Williams out of spite. He ate my plums and his apology was lackluster. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 03:29, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Can this page range be narrowed down? Published in 1901, this book became the talk of Paris, reprinted more than 60 times in its first year. Barney was soon well known as the model for one of the characters. By this time, however, the two had already broken up after quarreling repeatedly over Barney's desire to "rescue" de Pougy from her life as a courtesan. Rodriguez pages 88–103 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:27, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Narrowed, but more work needs to be done on the "end" of their relationship, as Rodriguez is clear it continued for years and mentions an above-the-waist-only fling decades later. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 01:01, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Same here: even rinsing her mouth with perfumed water to hide the smell. Colette pages 83–103 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:27, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

This seems to have been fixed since I last looked at the article Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:59, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Missing title: Livia, Anna (1995). "Introduction: Lucie Delarue-Mardrus and the Phrenetic Harlequinade". In Delarue-Mardrus (ed.). pp. 1–60. {{cite book}}: Empty citation (help): Missing or empty |title= (help) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:27, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Found the Livia 1995 title Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:36, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Are both of these supposed to be 31, or is that a typo? Rodriguez 2002, p. 31. Barney recounted this incident in Adventures of the Mind, p. 31. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:33, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Appears to be correct. The Rodriguez is certainly meant to be p.31, and she cites Adventures p.31, though I don't have access to Adventures to verify for myself. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:57, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Reliable? ...whom Natalie Barney had met as a little girl ... https://oscarwildeinamerica.blog/2015/03/30/a-scene-at-long-beach/ When Natalie Barney met Oscar Wilde SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:45, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm iffy on reliability, and even more so on relevance; the meeting between Oscar Wilde and Barney is already discussed (sourced to Rodriguez's biography of Barney, an obviously reliable source) in #Early life; I don't see any reason to mention it again in the section on Dolly Wilde – it's not as though Barney's meeting of Oscar as a child had any bearing on her meeting Dolly. I'll cut it. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 08:22, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

What does this mean ? Frances Benjamin Johnston (1864–1952)/LOC cph.3b24474 ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:20, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Seems to be a Library of Congress reference for the photograph. The LOC entry is linked from the commons page for the file, so I've cut it from the caption as being simply confusing Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 08:34, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

and other French sources call it "lupus tuberculeux" Can anyone access this source to see if it can be used to cite the statement? https://www.jstor.org/stable/44858430 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:05, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it does describe de Gourmont as being "défiguré par un lupus tuberculeux" on page 237. FYI, I think we can all access this via the Wikipedia Library. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 01:01, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Reminder to self to resume at "Epigrams" section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:29, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Why is this trivia in the article? "This plaque was vandalized in July 2010." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:34, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Removed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:52, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

The lead is underdeveloped, and there is MOS:SANDWICH everywhere. I can work on the sandwiching, if no one else does, but I can't write the lead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:04, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I may have exacerbated the sandwich issue in this edit by adding one image. I'd be happy to work on the lead after I finish reading up on and then expanding the de Gramont subsection. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:12, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Sandy, do you think we could fit File:A gathering of women including Eva Palmer, Natalie Barney, and Liane de Pougy in Barney's garden in Neuilly.png somewhere in the Poetry and plays section? I'm a little sandwich-shy. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:43, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Caption here

Quelques Portraits-Sonnets de Femmes, 1900 edition cover

Waterlily, a portrait of Barney's cousin Ellen Goin, was one of the illustrations for Quelques Portraits-Sonnets de Femmes.

We could try a multiple image like this, but a) I don't know why the Gathering image doesn't show full size or how to fix that, and b) do you think it odd to combine three images that are so differently colored? I've never uploaded images, so I don't know how to go about cropping the Gathering image to get it to a normal size ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:56, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Now cropped. I think it updated in your multi-image automatically. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:48, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Awesome ... if you like the look, this would fit ... usually when I do a multiple image, I try to have similar-looking images ... these three are very different, but up to you. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:19, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure I do like the look, and I think you're on the money about why. I'll give it some thought, and perhaps someone else can chime in. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:25, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

OK ... I was going to combine a couple of others (as soon as I get caught up and find the time) that are causing a bit of clog, but easier to do when on real computer. If you dislike anything I do in that realm, once I get to it, do not hesitate to revert! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:45, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Waterlily, a portrait of Barney's cousin Ellen Goin, was one of the illustrations for Quelques Portraits-Sonnets de Femmes.

Quelques Portraits-Sonnets de Femmes, 1900 edition cover

Caption here

Does it work if they are separated? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:51, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes! I have some ideas for the caption. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:33, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Natalie Clifford Barney, lettres à Liane de Pougy

Bonjour to all,

I believed to be of some interest the link of the original of the first letter Natalie sent to Liane de Pougy. But my contribution " 12 novembre 2021 à 15:08 " was révoquée for some reason. Anyway, if you believe this to be usefull, this is the link of the letter - Source "Legs Salomon Reinach. Natalie Clifford Barney, lettres à Liane de Pougy. Tome I"

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10023459x/f13.item

Thanks and sorry for my english Dominique — Preceding unsigned comment added by Do contant (talk • contribs) 10:28, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Do contant. I added it in the External links section. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:40, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Excellent - Merci

Dominique Do contant (talk) 08:50, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Lead rewrite

Hi everyone. I reworked the lead in this edit. I would appreciate some additional eyes on it for major changes or refinement. I'm copying the pre-FAR lead and new lead below for comparison:

Pre-FAR

New

Natalie Clifford Barney (October 31, 1876 – February 2, 1972) was an American playwright, poet and novelist who lived as an expatriate in Paris. Barney's salon was held at her home at 20 rue Jacob in Paris's Left Bank for more than 60 years and brought together writers and artists from around the world, including many leading figures in French literature along with American and British Modernists of the Lost Generation. She worked to promote writing by women and formed a "Women's Academy" (L'Académie des Femmes) in response to the all-male French Academy while also giving support and inspiration to male writers from Remy de Gourmont to Truman Capote. She was openly lesbian and began publishing love poems to women under her own name as early as 1900, considering scandal as "the best way of getting rid of nuisances" (meaning heterosexual attention from young men). She wrote in both French and English. In her writings she supported feminism and pacifism. She opposed monogamy and had many overlapping long and short-term relationships, including on-and-off romances with poet Renée Vivien and dancer Armen Ohanian and a 50-year relationship with painter Romaine Brooks. Her life and love affairs served as inspiration for many novels written by others, ranging from the salacious French bestseller Idylle Saphique to The Well of Loneliness, the most famous lesbian novel of the twentieth century.

Natalie Clifford Barney (October 31, 1876 – February 2, 1972) was an American writer who lived most of her life as an expatriate in Paris. She influenced other authors with her poetry, plays, and epigrams—often thematically tied to her lesbianism and feminism—but more so through her hosting of a literary salon that brought together French and international writers. Barney grew up with rich parents, an irregular French boarding school education, and a desire from a young age to live openly as a lesbian. She moved to France with her first romantic partner, Eva Palmer. Inspired by the work of Sappho, Barney began publishing love poems to women under her own name as early as 1900. Writing in both French and English, she supported feminism and pacifism. She opposed monogamy and had many overlapping long and short-term relationships, including on-and-off romances with poet Renée Vivien and courtesan Liane de Pougy and longer relationships with writer Élisabeth de Gramont and painter Romaine Brooks. Barney hosted a salon at her home in Paris for more than 60 years, bringing together writers and artists from around the world, including many leading figures in French, American, and British literature. Attendees of various sexualities expressed themselves and mingled comfortably at the weekly gatherings. She worked to promote writing by women and hosted a "Women's Academy" (L'Académie des Femmes) in her salon as a response to the all-male French Academy. The salon closed for the duration of World War II, while Barney lived in Italy with Romaine Brooks, espousing initially some pro-fascist views. She supported the Allies by the end of the war, returned to Paris, resumed the salon, and continued influencing or inspiring writers, including Truman Capote. Barney had a wide literary influence. Remy de Gourmont addressed public letters to her using the nickname l'Amazon (the Amazon), and Barney's assocation with both de Gourmont and the nickname lasted until her death. Her life and love affairs served as inspiration for many novels written by others, ranging from Liane de Pougy's salacious French bestseller Idylle Saphique to Radclyffe Hall's The Well of Loneliness, the most famous lesbian novel of the twentieth century.

Hope I'm on the right track! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

A nice start ... I have a few suggested tweaks, which I hope to be able to type up tomorrow ... real life got yukky. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:19, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the early encouragement SG. Look forward to the tweaking. Sorry about the yukk; my life is currently in a period of "how yukky is it about to get?", which is itself yukky. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:23, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Sounds familiar :( My tweaks won't be difficult to do ... just difficult to explain and type up when tired ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:25, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm back ... my suggestions and queries are:

Feminism is not linked on first occurrence (rather, second): review wikilinking.

• Done. I can confirm, having used a script, that there are no duplicate links, but there might still be some links that come too late. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Missing hyphen? many overlapping long and short-term relationships, --> long- and short-term relationships? Alternately, is the mention of long- and short-term redundant to the rest of the sentence, which explains that?

• Agree it's redundant. Removed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I have not yet done a full read-through, but ... Attendees of various sexualities expressed themselves and mingled comfortably at the weekly gatherings. ... where do we source this content in the article? For example, comfortably?

Brooks is already named in the lead, so remove first name ... lived in Italy with Romaine Brooks, ... same here ... ranging from Liane de Pougy's salacious ... also, review this throughout, eg always including Romaine Brooks when she invited Barney --> Brooks ...

• Done. Reviewed and fixed a chunk of other names. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Is salacious cited in the article? I only see it became the talk of Paris.

The salon closed for the duration of World War II, while Barney lived in Italy with Romaine Brooks, espousing initially some pro-fascist views. She supported the Allies by the end of the war, returned to Paris, resumed the salon, and continued influencing or inspiring writers, including Truman Capote. --> better combine like thoughts ?? --> The salon closed for the duration of World War II while Barney lived in Italy with Brooks. She initially espoused some pro-fascist views, but supported the Allies by the end of the war. After the war, she returned to Paris, resumed the salon, and continued influencing or inspiring writers such as Truman Capote.

• Used your suggestion. Thanks! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Barney grew up with rich parents, an irregular French boarding school education, and a desire from a young age to live openly as a lesbian. I am stumbling over this because, although it may not actually do so, it feels like switching tenses and combining too many unrelated thoughts. And ugh on "rich parents" ... how about wealthy family ? One can be "rich" in many ways besides money. What an "irreglular" boarding school education means is not defined in the article. --> ?? something like --> Barney was born in to a wealthy family. She was partly educated in France, and expressed a desire from a young age to live openly as a lesbian.

• Done. The body uses "haphazard", but I like your suggestion better than mine anyway. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Is there too much about her mother in "Early life", considering her mother has her own article?

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:28, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I implemented a bunch of these as noted above. What's left is:

• "Salacious" and sexuality at the salon are both good points. I think the better fix is to flesh out the body rather than remove from the lead. Working on it.
• Early life: I think there's a bunch we could trim. I'd favor cutting the ancestry in paragraph 1 and trimming paragraph 2 down to a few sentences, cutting the Alice's studies and paintings' location.

Let me know if you think that's a reasonable path forward. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good; SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:57, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I added a bit of titillation to Idylle in the body and changed "salacious" to "erotic" in the lead. I expanded on the salon in the body and kept the sexuality line in the lead. Trimmed a bunch in early life. I feel good about it, hope you do too. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:37, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Looking good ... I will enter a Keep at the FAR, but if you should find a way to address this, I'm not sure the first sentence captures the most important elements (Natalie Clifford Barney was an American writer who lived most of her life as an expatriate in Paris), but I don't see any way to improve on it. Nice save! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Great news! Good feedback on the opener. I gave it another shot. Better? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:47, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

That does the trick! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Inaccurate photo

The main photo is of Alice Hughes, not Natalie Barney. However there is a photo of her as a younger woman online very similar to that of the Alice Hughes photo shown. 2601:645:581:55F0:F8CA:18CD:7D74:3C80 (talk) 05:22, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

According to whom? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:14, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

The Smithsonian say it is Barney... Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:11, 20 August 2023 (UTC)