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Greek population

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It is sourced that there is a Greek population in Narta. It's removal without any discussion by User:I Pakapshem is problematic. Is there a valid reason for this? The fact that the source is not available online does not mean it cannot be used. I have restored the removed info. Athenean (talk) 23:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it is online to me. But we have additional sources that claim this ([[1]] p. 51), like Hammond [[2]].Alexikoua (talk) 23:44, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where is the source? The travel guide provided as a source and the page provided are not valid. The page does not even show up in the book. Show me where it excatly states there is a greek population in Narta, or otherwise the info will have to go. --I Pakapshem (talk) 18:10, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Are you serious? How about you just click on the two links provided by Alexikoua above? Athenean (talk) 18:27, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am very serious. First and foremost the links provided by Alexikoua are not the sources provided in the article. Second, if you're going to use these sources then they need to be properly cited. Both of them mention a greek-speaking population of Narta, and not Greek. Greek-speaking and greek are two different things. Third, the first source is very dubious as it is talking about personal stories and making outright claims of the village being Greek-speaking without any concrete academic proof. Hammond's source is obviously more credible, although Hammond can certainly be characterized as fervent philhellene given the fact that he fought with the SOE in Greece and was decorated by the Greek state, but even Hammond's source talks about a greek-speaking village and the statement is very dry whithout giving any evidence why this village is greek speaking. --I Pakapshem (talk) 18:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Incredible. Seems like nothing is good enough for you. You have been provided with no less than 3 different sources, yet here you re trying to undermine them with the most inane of arguments("Greek-speaking and Greek are two different things", "no concrete academic proof", "the statement is very dry"). Even if I could bring 50 sources, but you would again attack them using the same utterly inane arguments. These kinds of arguments just prove that there is no point in arguing with you. You have decided that there are no Greeks in Narta (or anywhere else in Albania), and nothing, NOTHING, will convince you otherwise. I'm done wasting my time here. Athenean (talk) 19:09, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ad hominem arguments are fallacies and you should know this very well. It does not matter what I have decided, what I think or what I am convinced of and you certaily do not know any of these. Pure speculation because of frustration does not prove anything. What matters is in wikipedia is verifiabilty and notability or the sources in order to back your claim. I am challinging these two aspects of your 3 sources (a travel guide, a book by an unknown author and another one by a notable philhellene). One word senteces boldly declaring that a certain village is greek speaking is hardly convincing material. My arguments are far from inane, they're substantial and valid; the problem seems to be with your inability to counter them. Since you're bowing down, I take this as open invitation to revert your changes unless you have credible sources.--I Pakapshem (talk) 20:25, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


I suggest that we leave there Greek speaking, but not say Greek. In fact they are different concepts. In addition, we shouldn't use the Greek letters to define the settlement. Go prove that all the Greek speaking people of Narte don't identify with Albania. The same argument is made over and over from the Greek side about the Arvanites. Would we Albanians dare say here in Wikipedia that Spetses is Arvanite speaking? No, because you have made sure to find sources saying that ALL the Arvanites have a Greek conscience (forgetting of course Kullurioti, Kolia & Company). I checked the Spetses article and there is nothing similar in the lead. Guess what, the word Arvanite is not even present in Spetses. Good finding on Hammond, I didn't know that he was a philogreek: So why are we being told that Owen Pearson has to be deemed Albanophile in the articles? Let's not use double standards. --Sulmues Let's talk 19:44, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not. Making a distinction between "Greek" and "Greek-speaking" is utterly ridiculous OR and is the height of inane, obtuse POV-pushing, as are arguments of the type "Go prove that all Greek speaking people of Narta don't identify with Albania". Hammond is an extremely prestigious academic source (unlike Pearson), and is not "philogreek" or any such nonsense. The sourcing is rock-solid, and this seems like just another case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT by the usual suspects. The ridiculous arguments used to support it need not be taken seriously, and if I were you guys, I would stop embarassing myself and find something more productive to do. So long. Athenean (talk) 19:52, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Are you actually claiming that all greek speaker of the world are ethnic greeks? Because if so then the one who is embarrasing yourself is you. Oh and oh yeah, you are very quick to accuse people, but you fail to look in the mirror and analyze your own behavior. --I Pakapshem (talk) 20:28, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


@Sulmues: Can you support this with any source or something. It seems you are alone in this planet to claim such theories.Alexikoua (talk) 19:54, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Greek" is of course different from "Greek-speaking". I personally speak 7 languages. Does that mean that at every moment of my day I can also choose a different ethnicity? Don't think so. Narte's population is bilingual for many factors (and so are Spetses Arvanites btw). So is Himara too. Alexikoua, don't rush to tag OR everything I say, just because I can't present to you the sources. We are discussing YOUR sources, and let's stick with them. If there is a Greek speaking community in Narte, let's say it, but if I see Narte in your template of Northern Epirus, then I will take it off, as it's not part of Northern Epirus. Your andartis didn't even fight for it in 1914, because they knew that Narte and Himare are Greek-speaking Albanians. Alexi, if you want to cite Bradt, please do, it seems like you are the only one to have the book. It's offline for me. --Sulmues Let's talk 20:06, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Sulmues: Can you please avoid this 'your antartes' nonsense, they were not 'my' antardes and we are not belonging to guerilla groups. Narta isn't part of Northern Epirus and that's mentioned in the template. However, it hosts a Greek community: the template is called 'Northern Epirus region and Greek culture in Albania' by the way.Alexikoua (talk) 20:23, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What has Himara to do with all this?Alexikoua (talk) 20:24, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neither Himara nor Narte have a Greek population and they were not part of the areas where the International Commission designed as appropriate the use of Greek schools, reason being they are historically Albanian places. If you ask a Greek from Dropull about them, they will tell you that people from Himare are not true Greeks: they are Albanians who speak Greek. "Your andartis" in the sense of "Greek andartiko". In Albania we are so used to the term "andartet greke", because their tortures to the Albanian population in 1913-1914 are still felt check this. Hm, a source that could have been used in Hormove. --Sulmues Let's talk 20:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see a reason why the discussion should be generalized. About wp:or issues I don't see a reason why to respont, at least in wiki.Alexikoua (talk) 21:13, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
About the link you gave, I can't understand Albanian, but as I see Kodra/Hormova or similar words are completely missing.Alexikoua (talk) 21:32, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

\

Corrected, thanks, please check again. --Sulmues Let's talk 21:41, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

sulmues is right...greek and greekspeaking are different things eg the greekspeaking muslims of pontus arent greek BUT it should be SHOWN like in the case of the arvanites wrt albanians (you forgot Neroutsos sulmues...) that the population of (n)arte is 'only greekspeaking and not greek'...many himariots would also dispute that they are ONLY greekspeaking, recent theories of 'were himariots neither albanians nor greeks' aside87.202.6.63 (talk) 21:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User Alexikoua purposely concealing facts.

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The name of the town comes from the Albanian word: Artë, Arta. Yet this user deliberately attempts to conceal this due to Greek propaganda. Even going as far as giving me a warning for merely stating fact. Just because the town has a Greek minority that I am not attempting to hide that doesn't mean the villages name is Greek. Astounding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoeLika (talk • contribs) 16:49, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You need to support your claim with wp:rs.Alexikoua (talk) 21:16, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What Arta/Artë means in Albanian does not need a source, but the etymology of the name Narta/Nartë does. You need a reliable source that the name derives from the Albanian word.
Also: Given that the town has a Greek minority (as you agree), it is relevant to also give the Greek name.
And: If the etymology from Albanian can be sourced, it would probably be better to present that in a separate section called "Name" or "Etymology". Then the Greek name could also be given there. --T*U (talk) 07:24, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But you are not giving the Greek name of this town. You're giving "Arta" which is a different place, and clearly attempting to somehow insinuate that the name of this town derives from the name of the town of Arta, while concealing that they are in fact both Albanian names and adjectives meaning "Gold". If you were giving "Artë" or "Arta" as an Albanian word than it would make sense because it would actually explain that it was named after "Gold". So as for a Greek version of the name because of the Greek minority, it would only be appropriate as "Nαρτα", not "Άρτα" and not "Παλαιοάρτα" as in fact "Paleoart" is a very late term and has nothing to do with the name of this town or the name of Arta city for that matter.
Epiri had Albanian rulers for a long time before the 1821 reinvention of Greece, and the outlawing of the Albanian language among the orthodox Albanians by Greece. Do not see how hiding that changes anything. Arta belongs to Greece at this point, your safe. Why attempt to hide anything Albanian as you always have, when we can clearly work together on shedding light on the past. ,JoeLika (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 21:46, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Still no valid argument. I've restored the former version with an inlinde citation.Alexikoua (talk) 23:27, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Exclusion of Hatzopoulos' own statement about Hatzopoulos hypothetical statement from another author

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This is clear a wp:BLP violation [[3]] (attempt to exclude the author about a statement supposedly attributed to him by another one). Hatzopoulos is very careful when constructing the link between ancient and modern populations.Alexikoua (talk) 23:44, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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