Talk:Name of the Franks

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Comment on new sources added

Botteville just quickly I don't think this matches the consensus norms on WP. (You can easily post a link to WP:RSN and ask opinions.)

https://heritage-history.com/index.php?c=library&s=info-dir&f=history_faqs They describe themselves as a home-schooling family who thinks pre 20th century history writing was better than modern history writing, and within that subset a Catholic rather than protestant perspective. The focus is also on material suitable for children "a book must be published before 1923; it must be written for young people or the general public and must be organized as a narrative history rather than a textbook".

Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now as I understand it, you are questioning the reliability of the source. I know there is a big problem in getting good sources on the Internet. One also has to be careful about using parapharases or duplicates of Wikipedia. I actually experienced having several paragraphs lifted from WP, which I had written, only to be told I had lifted it from them. I was so disgusted I retired for quite a while. On this source the graphics impressed me so I didn't look that much into the author. If anyone thinks the source is questionable I'd rather use another. I may have to resort to JSTOR or perhaps a viewable book. We do have a certain standard of universality, which is why scholars are usually preferable. So, my preference is just to drop it and get another. Thank you.~~~ Botteville (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like the right sort of approach. The point you wanted to source doesn't look like a difficult one. Apart from JSTOR and google books there is also archive.org and academia.edu and others.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:12, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The name in history

What we lack here is an account of how the name happened to be used. There are a couple of ancient sources on it. I wouldn't dare use them without at least one secondary source. There is some partial material in the Genobaud article I can start with. I will do this in the sandbox, as you suggested. Meanwhile I have a no-evidence request from Lancaster. You keep saying there is no consensus (of evidence I presume) on a political organization of the early Franks. In this context that is not allowed to be your opinion. Perhaps you could get together a reference or two on that. I also will be looking for one.Botteville (talk) 16:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the Franks article in the Reallexikon.

Anton, Hans H. (1995), "Franken III. Historisches", in Beck, Heinrich; Geuenich, Dieter; Steuer, Heiko (eds.), Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde, vol. 9 (2 ed.), De Gruyter, pp. 414–415, ISBN 978-3-11-014642-4

so sind für die Frage nach der Vereinigung dieser Teilstämme einige Fakten erheblich: Neben der gemeinsamen Bezeichnung lebten die Namen der Einzelstämme weiter, bis zum Ende des 5. Jh.s fehlte die Zusammenfassung unter einheitlichen monarchischen Spitzen, auch schon für die Frühzeit ist das Nebeneinander verschiedener Stammesrechte zu erschließen. All dieses weist auf einen längeren Konzentrationsprozeß und auf die langsame Genese eines einheitlichen Stammes hin (vgl. § 6). In der neueren Forsch. besteht dementsprechend Konsens darüber, daß in der Frühzeit nicht von einem einheitlichen Stammesverband gesprochen werden kann. Vielmehr versucht man - und dies zu Recht - den Gegebenheiten mit Begriffen wie „Stammesschwarm“ (127, 53 f. 518) oder „Stammesbund“ (140, 2) gerecht zu werden.

[Translation:] Several facts are significant for understanding the unification of these sub-tribes: Despite the common designation, the names of individual tribes persisted. Until the end of the 5th century, there was no unification under a single monarchic leadership, and even in earlier times, the coexistence of different tribal laws can be deduced. All this points to a longer process of consolidation and the gradual development of a unified tribe (cf. § 6). Accordingly, modern research agrees that it is not possible to speak of a unified tribal confederation in the early period. Instead, scholars—rightly so—attempt to address the situation with terms like "tribal swarm" (127, 53 f. 518) or "tribal confederation" (140, 2).

--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:18, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised, but pleasantly so this time. Thank you for the ref. If you see any more throw them in here. I have some of my own of course and it will take some days to set this up and throw them together. I see this section as being at the end: name and etymology, geography, language, history. Some stuff will disappear from Genobaud but to proceed methodically takes time. Ciao.Botteville (talk) 01:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]