Talk:Mystra (Forgotten Realms)

book covers and fair use

The cover of a book is reproducable under the fair use doctrine when discussing the book itself, or the artwork itself. This article discusses a character in the book, and is therefore not fair use. I have again removed the image. -- Mikeblas 16:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Frankly I had enough of your removings and AfDs. Yes, we don't know that well about wikipedia rules. But then, we have passions, which was expressed in the editing of articles. If we do not know enough about wikipedaia rules, you guys as admins could at least show us how to do things right, not simply proposing negative actions, removing contents, or AfD. In doing so you kill only the passion which is the building foundation of Wikiepdia . Yeah, you probably would cite some wikipeidia policy or references we didn't notice. But then, if you show us examples of how to do it, wouldn't it be better ? --Cynehelm (talk) 11:27, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

removed one paragraph, which is misleading. not official WoTC lore, no citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.91.239 (talk) 16:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC) (about Mystra/Midnight been slain) 85.97.91.239 (talk) 16:10, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It may be worth noting that, with the upcoming release of D&D 4.0, an event known as the Spellplague will occur in the realms that will result in the death of Mystra. I don't see problems with preempting this, as the action has already been announced, the novels/RPG books that deal with it simply aren't out yet.76.2.26.2 (talk) 03:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm probably just knit picking but in the relationships section it says: "Mystra's greatest enemies are Shar, who created the Shadow Weave in response to Selûne's creation of Mystra and the birth of the Weave"

Shouldn't it be Mystryl instead of Mystra? Josh60950 (talk) 09:05, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the correction since their were no disagreements. Josh60950 (talk) 08:10, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I edited the article to correctly reflect Mystra's status as a dead God. I left most of the article intact and just chenged the tense from present to past in keeping with the 4.0 (current) realms. I also elevated the paragraph about her death higher in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.79.28.42 (talk) 17:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Someone reverted my edit to the state of the article before I edited it to correctly reflect Mystra's status as a dead god per the current timeline of the Forgotten Realms as published by WOTC. My edits did not affect the text except to change tenses and reflect the current Forgotten Realms timeline. I have fixed the article to display current and factual information by returning it to the state it was in before the revision took place. Would someone please explain to me the proper method for contacting a moderator to insure that no further vandalism occurs on this article? Thank-you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.79.28.42 (talk) 19:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move February 26 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved, as editors argue it is not the primary topic in RS for name "Mystra" (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 16:33, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

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• Mystra (Forgotten Realms) → Mystra
• Mystra → ?

I would consider this as an unnecessary disambiguation, and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate list directory. Only one topic on Wikipedia is named "Mystra", so the FR deity should be unambiguously the primary topic. Mystras, the only other similar-sounding topic, is also known as Mistras or Myzithras in English. After some internet searches as part of my due diligence, I concluded that there is no evidence that "Mystra" as spelled is used as an adjectival formation or demonym for any topic involving the Greek city, and to eliminate any doubt or confusion, a hatnote could and should be placed on both articles. Haleth (talk) 09:45, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Note: Mystra titles a dab page with significant content, so it cannot be a target title in a move request unless also proposed to be moved or speedily deleted per WP:ONEOTHER. I have altered this request to reflect those facts. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 04:21, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom. A hatnote can handle this perfectly well. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:38, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I have reconsidered, as it does appear that the ancient city is often referred to as Mystra. Although I should point out that the article on Mystras makes zero mention of the name Mystra, which is obviously misleading. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:39, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
• VERY STRONG OPPOSE @Necrothesp: Encyclopedia of Architectural and Engineering Feats Donald Langmead, ‎Christine Garnaut · 2001- Page 217 @Haleth: "Mystra, Greece megaron and its associated complex of buildings near the summit. Most of the palace has been lost. The citadel survived an attack around 1200 B.C., only to be destroyed, possibly by invading Dorians, about a century later." In ictu oculi (talk) 13:18, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment Many more sources via Google Books confirm that Mystras or Mistras, or even Mistra as proposed by Encyclopedia Britannica, are the correct primary terms used by the city. A hatnote is all that's needed on the proposed article I nominated as the primary topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haleth (talk • contribs) 10:18, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

(a) please sign your comments. (b) that's irrelevant, what you need to prove is that "Mystras" in 66% of books refers to the game deity. It doesn't. All your comments about the Greek city are missing the basic rule of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Suggest that you do not initiate any more RMs until you have digested and understood all of WP:TITLE. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:24, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

It looks like Haleth was responding to multiple comments at once & just accidently missed signing this one comment (they signed the rest). So I assume good faith & added in the missing signature. Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:15, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Sariel Xilo, that's exactly what happened. In ictu oculi, your opinion is noted but not accepted. This is a discussion about which articles may or may not be the primary topic of a topic and how best to resolve a disambiguation issue, not a discussion to determine what name to use for the Mystras city article, and I'll quote from WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: "There are no absolute rules for determining whether a primary topic exists and what it is; decisions are made by discussion among editors, often as a result of a requested move." Your assertion that there is a 66% percent threshold criteria of usage in books that must be met is not supported by vetted guidelines, site policy, or common sense within the context of the editing guideline. I suggest you take your own advice and/or agree to disagree, instead of aggressively casting aspersions on other editors merely for starting a discussion and taking an opposing view personally (like writing on my talk page). Haleth (talk) 04:01, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

WP:COMPETENCE. 66% would be a healthy benchmark. But in this case 100% of "Mystra was" https://www.google.co.uk/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22mystra+was%22&num=10 refer to the city. 100% of https://www.google.co.uk/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22mystra+is%22&num=10 "Mystra is" also refer to the city. Editors are expected to check WP:RS before proposing title changes. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:11, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

If you are going to quote WP:COMPETENCE, I suggest you take note of WP:CIRNOT with regards to your own incivility, and reflect on whether your approach is bludgeoning the process. Haleth (talk) 09:03, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Mystra is the name of the town in the accusative in Greek, and it is often "Latinised" this way. --Antondimak (talk) 14:30, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment. Incorrect. In the Greek version it is still known as "Mystras" or Mistras, in the accusative in fact. Note the rendering of "ς" as the last letter. You have not provided any evidence that the city's modern name Μυστράς or antiquated name Μυζηθράς is often Latinised as "Mystra" instead of the other names mentioned in the English language version of the article, so I would imagine that what you said is original research. Haleth (talk) 10:18, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
    • Incorrect. It is in fact "Mystra" in the accusative. I don't think I need to prove simple grammar in my native language. --Antondimak (talk) 06:55, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support The article at Mystras currently has zero instances of the word "Mystra", so I don't see the need for a disambiguation. A hatnote at most. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 16:15, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Steven Runciman's Lost Capital of Byzantium uses "Mistra", as does the ODB. I suspect that Mystra is just a compromise spelling between that (perhaps Italian) and Mystras. In any case, the D&D goddess is not the primary topic in any of the usual places one would look for reliable sources for writing articles. Even Google News thinks you're looking for the Greek city. Srnec (talk) 21:25, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Per editors above, it seems like there are multiple book sources that refer to this city as Mystra. I've struggled to find many secondary sources for the fictional god when working to improve this article so I don't think it is the primary topic for the name. Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:15, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Definitely not the primary topic with respect to usage: according to the clickstream dataset, among the visitors of the dab page for November, only 12 followed the link to the Forgotten Realms topic, compared to 34 who clicked through to Mystras. – Uanfala (talk) 22:50, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. I cannot believe we are seriously considering this. Guys, I know lots of you play and enjoy D&D but this is ridiculous. The city is real and has enduring cultural importance, and is often known by this name. The D&D fantasy is just that and will soon be forgotten. Maybe the D&D article does meet the notability guidelines, but... No contest IMO. Andrewa (talk) 10:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Counter proposal

• Move this TWODABS page Mystra to Mystra (disambiguation) per use of Mystra in books, and redirect the ancient city Mystra to the modern town Mystras, with hatnote to the Dungeons and Dragons game deity. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:25, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose. As another editor have pointed out, the article at Mystras currently has zero instances of the word "Mystra" spelled in this exact manner. The term, as rendered, is clearly not the primary or even secondary name of the city according to existing sourcing, whether in its modern or ancient iteration. The ambiguity could be adequately addressed by a hatnote placed on the proposed article I nominated as the primary topic. Haleth (talk) 10:18, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Overruled. Wikipedia is not a source. Books do, so what the article does is irrelevant. Again please read WP:TITLE. In ictu oculi (talk)

Books are a helpful source, but by no means a definitive authority, when determining a primary topic on Wikipedia per WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY. Haleth (talk) 04:01, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

• Note: Moving this heading under the requested move so it is all in one place. Sariel Xilo (talk) 23:19, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Good move. Andrewa (talk) 09:58, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.