Talk:Muthuraja

Recent revert

Regarding my recent removal, re-removal and re-re-removal of material from this article, please note our attitude to verifiability and reliable sources. Too much of the material was unsourced and reliability was an issue in those statements where a source was provided. I left some info in my original step-by-step removals, which can be seen here and I will add that we now know that some sockpuppet accounts have been contributing to the article. - Sitush (talk) 06:17, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2018

The MuthuRaja(Mutharaiyar) Caste People are Strictly avoided the Intercaste Marriage Jkalaiarasan86 (talk) 12:58, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

 Not done What do you want to change? Use the format "change X to Y" ~ Abelmoschus Esculentus (talk to me) 07:42, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2018

Intha detail Neraiya maatha vendiyathirukku Muthu raja la Neenga valaiyar explain panna deva illa 1996 munbu Valaiyar vera Muthu raja vera Innum Kuda Muthuraja vum Valaiyarum Kalyaanam Pannikka mataanga adanaala valaiyar ellathaiyaum edunga Land owner nu podunga Yaru itha edit pannathu lusa neenga 42.109.128.166 (talk) 13:31, 6 December 2018 (UTC) Google translate: In detail, the details of the Neighbors are not included in the description of the Neenga valaiyar in 1996. You can also find the Muthuraja or Muthu Raja in the Muthu Raja of the country and the local owner of the landlord and the owner of the land owner. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. It may help make your request clearer if you're able to make the request in English, as most contributors here on the English Wikipedia are native English speakers. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:07, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Different

|ans= Mutharaiyar is a Dynastry around Tanjore TamilNadu. Muthuraja is a Tamil caste. Muthiraju/Mudiraju is a Teluge caste so Not Merge the 3 page --Jkalaiarasan86 (talk) 04:09, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Paluvettaraiyar

Please do not add Paluvettaraiyars to the article without supporting references. You need to provide source for explaining relation between Paluvettaraiyar and Muthuraja community. According to sources the Paluvettaraiyar are a separate and distinct community from Kerala. Check [1]. Nittawinoda (talk) 08:20, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Muthuraja.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:51, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Stable version

I have just taken this article way back in time. There has been a lot of pov-pushing, a lot of edit warring and a lot of dodgy sources. Please note that just because something appears in a newspaper or in a book does not make it reliable. Even where stuff was sourced, it was often to obscure publications written by obscure people who seem not to be much (if at all) cited elsewhere. There are far, far too many caste-based, amateur and pseudo-historians, especially emanating from South India. - Sitush (talk) 07:31, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

The article has been reverted again but this time per the explanation given here. Let's assume that is the end of the edit warring.

I remain concerned, however, per my opening comment here. In fact, I am even more concerned now because I think there may be some copyright violation and/or close paraphrasing going on. I noted one example here and I am fairly sure there are others, perhaps going back for years - see this comment. - Sitush (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

The state gazetteers are not reliable sources for pre-independence history because they're basically plagiarised from the British Raj gazetteers, which are known to be unreliable. The citations using such things in this article will have to be replaced. - Sitush (talk) 17:42, 8 January 2019 (UTC) = removed

The population estimate is simply unacceptable. The estimate comes from a politicised group who have a vested interest in the figure and is not independent of the caste. It massively fails WP:RS even thought it is printed in The Times of India. - Sitush (talk) 17:45, 8 January 2019 (UTC) - removed

@Sitush:,@Bishonen:,@RexxS:. Please go ahead and review the article as it stands now. You can remove the disputed sections and the copyright violations. Btw, Jkalaiarasan86 copied my edits and inserted them in the dynasty article. I thought I already brought this to your attention. [2] Nittawinoda (talk) 17:50, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Bishonen and RexxS will not get involved in a review because it would compromise their ability to take administrative actions (see WP:INVOLVED). I've got another query, which is because of my understanding that Setty's The Valayar of South India: Society and religion comprises three volumes - which volume is being cited? Would it be easier for you to respond if I number these queries? - Sitush (talk) 17:54, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

The link leads to volume 1. But as I said, for now you can remove the disputed content and the statements with bad citations. It will be easier to just re-insert them at a later point, but of course, after discussing the refs. Thanks, Nittawinoda (talk) 18:00, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Citations such as Journal of Indian history, Volume 19, page 40 are simply not good enough. What article? Who wrote the article? What date? Such citations are commonly a sign that someone has used a Google Books snippet view and we deprecate use of those because there is no context provided. I'll continue to discuss, thanks. Removing them without much explanation doesn't help matters. - Sitush (talk) 18:03, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

@Sitush: I would like to replace the line "they were historically zamindars, landlords..." in the lead with "Historically they were rulers/kings, chieftains and administrative heads". Can you review the refs for this?

1. King Perumbidugu Mutharayar from Muthuraja community [3]

2. "They were chieftains" etc.--- Ethnic Strains in the Muthuraja Community, Tiruchirapally District, South India, R. K. Gulati, page 14

Thanks, Nittawinoda (talk) 16:26, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in responding. I'm really not sure, just as I am really not sure about the source added in these edits, which is available online here. These various regional history books seem to be very high on speculation and low on sources: they state as fact things that they appear to have pulled out of thin air, they're published by obscure outfits (eg: the International Society for the Investigation of Ancient Civilisation) and they do not seem to get much in the way of citations by others even though, for example, the Baylys have been pretty active in writing about South Indian history. Pinging Utcursch, Kautilya3, Fowler&fowler for their thoughts - anyone else is, of couse, welcome to chip in with their opinion. - Sitush (talk) 08:02, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Claims of being "kings" and "chieftains" are common to practically every caste, and this is no exception. Here is the real story:

The second community was the Muthuraja, who are mainly agricultural workers but have now entered white collar and other jobs. The Muthuraja belong to what are generally called 'caste Hindus', they live inside the village or in adjacent settlements.

And another source:

about 70 percent of the working population and 72 percent of the households turned out to be mainly engaged in agriculture, which was the second highest after the SCs.[14] By contrast, the proportion engaged in business was extremely small. Second, they were the least concerned of all the communities with urban employment, again with the exception of the SCs, and the rate of SSLC or ITI certificate holders among their family members was lower than the Pillais and Chettiars.

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:20, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

References

• The first citation was apparently added Xenani here. Xenani, can you please provide a quotation from the book that verifies the content? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:24, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi Kautilya3. I see that some users have edited the content I added but have kept the sources I added without taking consideration to what is said in my sources. But here is the requested quotation:

They all agree that the very name Valaiyar is demeaning, and they tend to reject it accordingly; they have started using the name Mooppanar but this is not yet very widespread. Many people call themselves Ambalakkarars.

And, (from Eliza F. Kent source)

The preferred caste name of the second community in this region well known for its maintenance of sacred groves is Muttaraiyar. As with the Kallar-Ambalakkarars, today they generally avoid the older caste title, Valaiyar, which relates to their past as hunters of small game (mice, rabbits, squirrels, doves, etc.) in the region's forested peripheries.

I would like to add a quotation from the E.D. Setty source,

The Valayar as a group are engaged in diverse occupations and professions as farmers, farm-labourers, fishermen, collectors of firewood and wild products, petty traders, domestic servants, village menials (Talayaris) etc..

Xenani (talk) 18:45, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Kudiyaanavar

@Mutharaiyar29: in this article only about a Muthuraja caste.not the Mutharaiyar community(29 sub caste).Muthuraja only called Kudiyaanavar and Ambalakarar.

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2019

Mutharaiyars not invaded Tamilnadu from erumai nadu(Mysore). They recaptured their Mother land from the rule of Kalabras.

Mutharaiyars are branch of Karikala cholan (Ref. Punniya kumara Muthuraja Copper Plate) and native tamilians. They are is no evidence that they invaded the tamil nadu. Jegansundararajan (talk) 05:31, 2 June 2019 (UTC) Mutharaiyars are Tamilians and not the invaders. Both Vijayalaya and Punniya kumara Muthuraja are from Raynadu Cholas(Telugu Cholas). Vijayala after annexing Thanjavur from Ilango Mutharaiyar, he made Ilango as his Army Commander. Who will make his enemy as a army head after conquering his land?

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NiciVampireHeart 21:18, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Muthuraja

@ElHef: @NiciVampireHeart:

The information, which is given in the Muthuraja article is incorrect

The Muthuraja is not a fully Tamil caste and it has Telugu Muthuraja also included

Book Name: Barriers broken: production relations and agrarian change in Tamil Nadu Page:No :25

The Muthurajas are descendants of the soldiers which the poligars recruited in their homeland, the Telugu-speaking areas of contemporary Andhra Pradesh, north of Tamil Nadu Like other castes originating from Andhra, they are bilingual, often speaking Telugu in family circles and Tamil outside the house "

Book Name : Kattavarayan Katai Page:No :19

" Among the Telugu castes that came to Tamilnadu were the Muthurajas or Mutrāchas"

(Backward Classes Welfare Department G.O.Ms.No :15.) Mutharaiyar caste have 29 subcaste in tamilnadu such as Muthuraja Naidu(Telugu) & Muthuraju(Telugu)

Concerning the Mutrāchas,(present-day Muthuraja) Mr. H. A. Stuart writes as follows. This is a Telugu caste most numerous in the North Arcot districts ( North Arcot district was divided into Vellore District and Tiruvannamalai District)

South Arcot district MUTHRACHA(present-day Muthuraja) reported as Telugu caste name in 1881 census ( South Arcot district: present-day districts of Cuddalore, Kallakurichi and Viluppuram)

The Telugu Speaking Muthuraja community is mostly distributed in the chennai , Thiruvallur , Vellore, Tiruvannamalai and Cuddalore districts of Tamil Nadu

Please add correct information brother

Almighty34 (talk)

References

@Almighty34: I am not an expert on this article, and I don't think User:NiciVampireHeart is either. You can edit the article just as well as we can, so if changes need to be made to the article go ahead and make them yourself. Please make sure to cite your sources for any changes you make to the article! ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:02, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

etymology

@Sitush: The name Muthuraja is derived from mudi (old) and raja (king), i.e. old king of a sovereign part of Telugu country

Please change correct information bro-- Thanks Almighty34 (talk)

References

Please stop calling me bro. Neither of those sources are reliable - one is from the British Raj directly and the other is a plagiarised version of the Raj sources produced by the Anthropological Survey of India. There is a long-standing consensus that neither are used. - Sitush (talk) 07:45, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Muthuraja

@Sitush:

The Muthuraja in Tamil Nadu are also known as Muthuracha

Book:A handbook of Tamil Nadu

Author:K. M. Venkataramaiah Page:425

Muthuracha: A Telugu caste found in some districts of Tamil Nadu, the Muthuracha (muthurācha) is also called Muttaraiyan. Some are talaiyāris or watchmen of villages. They seem to be a major sect in the coastal villages of Andhra Pradesh

Almighty34 (talk)

References

If we list every variant spelling of a caste name, we usually end up with dozens because of transliteration issues and illiteracy. It is often better just to set up redirect pages from each of those variant spellings to the article that bears the common name. But it's up to you. - Sitush (talk) 10:30, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

As an example, just look at the mess at Dadheech Brahmins, which I am currently editing. And, by the way, you keep banging on about them being a Telugu caste but the article already say they originate in Andhra, they speak Telugu in their homes, and they live in Tamil Nadu - what actually is your problem here? - Sitush (talk) 10:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

No Problem Thanks - Almighty34 (talk)

References

false information

@Sitush: The information, which is given in the Muthuraja article is incorrect.Please add correct information

Almighty34 (talk)

What? - Sitush (talk) 07:23, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

@Sitush:Muthuraja Origin

Almighty34 (talk)

Thanks Almighty34 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:45, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Recent revert re origins etc

I reverted here. I have no idea at present which version is more correct but there have been large changes and I think they should by discussed by those who are for and against them, which right now seems to be Almighty34 (talk · contribs) and Madraskalai (talk · contribs). You will almost certainly have to be prepared to provide quotes etc from any sources that you wish to use. - Sitush (talk) 07:51, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Muthuraja

@Sitush:

Government of Tamilnadu Abstract Welfare of Backward classes - Mutharaiyar community and its sub-Sects calling the main community and its as Mutharaiyar -orders -Issused

backward classes and most backward classes welfare department G.O.Ms.No :15

Mutharaiyar caste have 29 subcaste in tamilnadu such as Muthuraja Naidu , Ambalakarar,Valayar, Servai etc

Muthuraja Naidu is a Telugu caste found in the state of Tamil Nadu in India. The Community certificate of Muthuraja Naidu the section of caste is mention as only Muthuraja

The Muthuraja in Tamil Nadu are also known as mutracha

Castes and Tribes of Southern India by Edgar Thurston

Naidu.— Naidu or Nāyudu is a title, returned at times of census by many Telugu classes, e.g., Balija, Bestha, Bōya, Ēkari, Gavara, Golla, Kālingi, Kāpu, Mutrācha, and Velama

Muthiriya Naicker is a Telugu caste found in the state of Tamil Nadu in India. The Muthiriya Naicker in Tamil Nadu are also known as Muthiriya Naidu

The Muthiriyar in Tamil Nadu are also known as Muttiriyan

Castes and Tribes of Southern India by Edgar Thurston

Naik, Naickan, Naicker, Nāyak or Nāyakkan has been returned, at recent times of census, by the Tamil Pallis, Irulas, and Vēdans, and also by various Telugu classes, e.g,: —

Telugu — Balija, Bōya, Ēkari, Golla, Kavarai, Muttiriyan, Oddē, Tottiyan, and Uppiliyan

Palayakkaran is a Telugu caste found in the state of Tamil Nadu in India They are variously known as Palayakkara Naidu and Palayakkara Naicker. The Community certificate of Palayakkaran the section of caste is mention as only Muthuraja

Muthiraj is a Telugu caste found in the state of Tamil Nadu in India The Community certificate of Muthiraj the section of caste is mention as only Muthuraja

Book Name: Barriers broken: production relations and agrarian change in Tamil Nadu Page:No :25

The Muthurajas are descendants of the soldiers which the poligars recruited in their homeland, the Telugu-speaking areas of contemporary Andhra Pradesh, north of Tamil Nadu Like other castes originating from Andhra, they are bilingual, often speaking Telugu in family circles and Tamil outside the house "

Book Name : Kattavarayan Katai Page:No :19

" Among the Telugu castes that came to Tamilnadu were the Muthurajas or Mutrāchas"

The Muthuraja in Tamil Nadu are also known as Muthuracha

Book:A handbook of Tamil Nadu

Author:K. M. Venkataramaiah Page:425

Muthuracha: A Telugu caste found in some districts of Tamil Nadu, the Muthuracha (muthurācha) is also called Muttaraiyan. Some are talaiyāris or watchmen of villages. They seem to be a major sect in the coastal villages of Andhra Pradesh

Almighty34 (talk)

References

I will get back to this but please note that the Tamil Nadu edition of The People of India is not reliable and I've told you this before. Neither is Thurston or the 1901 census - see User:Sitush/CasteSources. - Sitush (talk) 06:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Valaiyar Moopanar

Valaiyar and Muthuraja are different caste please visit [4]. Se No BC 81 Se No BC 98 Se No MBC 180 Cannot relate Muthuraja and Valaiar as well as Moopanar Valaiyar is a caste around Madurai region. Muthuraja is a caste around Trichy region. Trichy and around 250KM not a coastel area and how can Muthuraja is a fishing community. Please avoid Mutharaja work is fishing. Valaiyar and Muthuraja both are subsect of Mutharaiyar is a only relational. Never called Muthuraja is a valaiyar and Moopanar. Moopanar is a subcaste of Parkavakulam/Udaiyar cannot confuse Muthuraja and Moopanar .so please revert this edition [5]Madraskalai (talk) 13:27, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

We do not use government caste lists to determine relationships etc. They are far too ambiguous and are primary sources. - Sitush (talk) 06:36, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Unlock

Please unlock the page. Because Muthuraja region is not correct. Valaiyar and Moopanar is a sub caste of Mutharaiyar but not same the Muthuraja. Muthuraja distributed around Trichy region and how is Muthuraja is fisherman possible. Madraskalai (talk) 04:55, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I may have missed it but I haven't seen you provide any reliable sources for your claims yet. The entire purpose of locking the article was so that you and others who are disputing these matters would discuss them here and reach a consensus based on verifiability through the use of reliable sources. You cannot just keep demanding that you get your own way. - Sitush (talk) 06:37, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

29 Sub-Sects

@Sitush:

Muthuraja

Government of Tamilnadu Abstract Welfare of Backward classes - Mutharaiyar community and its sub-Sects calling the main community

backward classes and most backward classes welfare department G.O.Ms.No :15

Mutharaiyar caste have 29 subcaste in tamilnadu such as Muthuraja Naidu , Ambalakarar,Valayar, Servai etc Almighty34 (talk)12:05, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

References

Removal of sources and edit-warring

There have been removal of sources and edit-warring going on at this article; some or all of the following may be involved:

• 106.197.35.143 (talk · contribs)
• 2409:4072:116:7114::288b:e0a0/64 (talk · contribs)
• 2409:4072:390:7bbb::23e9:38a0/64 (talk · contribs)
• 2409:4072:6e93:544c:306d:35ff:fe1c:9ba/64 (talk · contribs)
• Duskyqueen (talk · contribs)
• Madraskalai (talk · contribs)
• Mutharaiyar29 (talk · contribs)
• Wizardkchkkx (talk · contribs)

The page has been unprotected since Aug. 21, but I think it needs it for a longer period. Sitush, you've been active here before, can you re-add protection? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 18:40, 30 August 2020 (UTC)