Talk:Mustang/Sandbox/Page2
History
[edit](Prehistory and 1493-1600 section moved to main article per near-consensus)
17th and 18th century dispersal
[edit](Section moved to mainspace per consensus)
Hatting discussion (can continue to discuss, just collapsing)
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You pretty much reverted all the changes I made after this was moved-all you kept was moving one paragraph. I didn't make substantial changes, so it would be more collaborative if, instead of just reverting, you change what you don't like and explain with edit summaries. Did you mean to also revert my additions to the "Further Reading" List? Because that seems pretty uncontroversial. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 00:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
IMHO, given our past level of conflict, we are collaborating surprisingly well. I'd like to continue doing so. So let's write, but maybe agree that most anything beyond typo fixing in the main article should occur with consensus. Onward! Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
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Etymology/Mesteñoros sandbox
[edit]The English word mustang comes from the 16th-century Mexican Spanish word mestengo, defined as "animal that strays". It is derived from the Spanish word mestengo, defined as "wild, stray, ownerless".The Spanish word in turn may possibly originate from the Latin expression mixta, referring to beasts of uncertain ownership, which were distributed by rancher's associations called mestas in Spain in the Middle Ages.[1] However, the adjective "mesteño", or "strayed"[2] is commonly used as the Spanish version of "mustang". [cmt ]
"Mesteñoros" (Spanish or Mexican "wild horse catchers")[3] were called "mustangers" "mustang runners", or "mustang hunters" in the USA.[4] In New Spain and Old Mexico they were usually vaqueros[5] who caught, broke, and drove free-roaming horses to market in the region of what today is Northern Mexico, Texas, New Mexico and California. They caught the horses that roamed the San Joaquin Valley of California[6] and the Texas prairie.[3] They were eventually joined by American mustangers, or "Cow Boys"[7] who later also began capturing the mustangs of the Great Basin.[citation needed]
Since 1971, "free-roaming horses" has come to mean "unbranded and unclaimed horses...on public lands in the United States" subject to the Wild and Free Roaming Horse and Burro Act (W&FRH&BA), and the term is used interchangeably with "mustangs", "wild horses" or "feral horses". However, sources use the term "free-roaming" in a historical sense to describe any horse that was foraging on public rangelands. [8][9]
It was about this time and place that the "mesteñeros" or mustangers began hunting and capturing the "mesteño" or mustang.[3][10] [cmt ]
Discussion
[edit]I hadn't thought about adding it to the etymology section, but I like it. Added some tags and hidden text. With a wee bit more cleanup and clarification, it is close to ready if we put it there. Wondering if a spinoff article would also be a good idea, or maybe popping this into the cowboy article to replace the section there also. Montanabw(talk) 18:05, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think there's enough there to warrant a spinoff article. Replacing what is in the cowboy article isn't a bad idea. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 12:44, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
19th and early 20th centuries
[edit]![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Wpdms_republic_of_texas.svg/220px-Wpdms_republic_of_texas.svg.png)
Multiple writers concur that "millions" of mustangs once roamed western North America,[11][12] but estimates and timeframe vary widely. In 1959, geographer Tom L. McKnight[a] stated that the population peaked in the late 1700s or early 1800s, and the "best guesses apparently lie between two and five million".[14] Historian J. Frank Dobie proposed that the population peaked around the end of the Mexican-American War in 1848, but with the caveat, "No scientific estimates of their numbers was made...My own guess is that at no time were there more than a million mustangs in Texas and no more than a million others scattered over the remainder of the West."[7] J. Edward de Steiguer[b] stated that Dobie's lower guess is still "subject to question" as to being too high.[16]
In 1839, the numbers of mustangs in Texas had been augmented by animals abandoned by Mexican settlers who had been ordered to leave the Nueces Strip[17][7] (also known as the "Wild Horse Desert"[18] or "Mustang Desert"[7]). When the area was finally ceded to the U.S. in 1848, these horses and others in the surrounding areas were were rounded up and trailed north and east,[19] resulting in the near elimination of mustangs in the Wild Horse Desert by 1860.[18]
In the early 1900s hundreds of thousands of free-roaming horses were rounded up for use in the Boer War and WWI. By 1930, mustangs had been eliminated from Texas.[20] In 1934, Dobie stated that there were just "a few wild [feral] horses in Nevada, Wyoming and other Western states...Only a trace of Spanish blood is left in most of them"[21] remaining. Other sources agree that by that time, only "pockets" of "Spanish" mustangs remained. [22] Even earlier, by 1920, cowboy Bob Brislawn had recognized that the original mustangs were disappearing, and was making an effort to preserve them, ultimately establishing the Spanish Mustang Registry[23].
At the same time large numbers of mustangs were documented in what was once called the Great American Desert[c] in the early to mid 1800s, their paucity had been noted by early explorers in the largest of the true North American deserts, which is the Great Basin[25]. No sources cited speak of any free-roaming horses documented in the eastern part of the Great Basin desert, however there were a few sightings along the western edge in Nevada. Jedediah Smith, in his 1827 trek across the Great Basin saw "some horse sign" along the West Walker River, but did not mention any actual horse sightings.[26] The first known sighting of a free-roaming horse in the Great Basin was by John Bidwell near the Humboldt Sinks in 1841. Although Fremont noted thousands of horses in California,[27] the only horse sign he spoke of in the Great Basin, which he named, was tracks around Pyramid Lake, and the natives he encountered there were horseless[28][d] In 1861, another party saw seven free-roaming horses near the Stillwater Range.[31]
For the most part, free-roaming horse herds in the interior of Nevada were established in the latter part of the 1800's from escaped settlers' horses (most notably draft horses[dubious – discuss][32])[33][27] As motorized vehicles and tractors became commonplace, horse populations on the range were no longer being kept in check by the ranchers removing them to sell or use,[34] and they began to be rounded up to be slaughtered for chicken [? animal - dogfood also a use (started with chicken, then dog food)] food.[35] Many herds descend from ranch stock because ranchers let horses to run free on the public domain rangelands to be rounded up as they needed them for sale or use.[36]
1930-1971
[edit]By 1930, free-roaming horse populations in the western U.S. were almost completely confined to the remaining General Land Office(GLO) administered public lands and National Forest rangelands in the 11 Western States.[37] The vast majority were found west of Continental Divide, with an estimated population between 50,000-150,000.[38] [e] Whether or not the population had diminished from the same geographic area is unknown since there are no scientific estimates for the earlier time period[39] except for Amaral's assertion that there were 100,000 in Nevada (where half of the mustangs are found today and which features the horses on its State Quarter in commemoration of this) in 1900. However, the populations did go into decline when the federal government got into the act of reducing the free-roaming horse population.[40]
After decades of unregulated cattle, sheep and horse grazing, the GLO-administered rangeland was becoming overgrazed, which had led to the passage of the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act. Its purpose was to “stop injury to the public lands by preventing over-grazing and soil deterioration; to provide for orderly use, improvement and development; to stabilize the livestock industry dependent upon the Public Range and for other purposes.” The U.S. Grazing Service was established to administer the Act.[41] The Grazing Service began establishing grazing fees, and determined that the fee for grazing horses would be double that for cattle and sheep. Ranchers, many of whom had gone broke during the Great Depression, simply left their unpermitted horses on the range, and after the end of World War II, the demand for horsemeat for pet food increased the roundups.[34] In 1946 the Grazing Service and the GLO were combined to create the Bureau of Land Management (BLM)[42] and the BLM and the United States Forest Service (USFS) began to round up feral horses by the thousands for extermination, even though many ranchers objected to the eradication of "their" horses.[43] By 1958, there were 14,810 to 29,620 mustangs remaining.[44][f] During culls, abuses linked to some elimination methods (e.g. hunting from airplanes and poisoning water holes) led to the first federal feral horse protection law in 1959. This statute, known as the "Wild Horse Annie Act",[45] prohibited the use of aircraft or motor vehicles for hunting "wild, unbranded" horses or polluting water sources.[46]
Passage of the Wild Horse Annie Act did not alleviate the concerns of mustang advocates, who continued to lobby for federal rather than state control over the disposition of free-roaming horses. Since most horses in the desert regions recently descended from rancher's horses, ownership of the free-roaming herds was contentious, and ranchers continued to use airplanes to gather them [47] Federal agencies also continued to try to eliminate horses from areas where the were perceived to be causing resource damage. In 1962, public pressure lead to the establishment of the Nevada Wild Horse Range, [48] and in 1968, the Pryor Mountains Wild Horse Range was established. In 1969, the National Mustang Association, headquartered in Utah,[49] persuaded Senator Frank Moss to introduce a bill (S-2166) to protect the remaining mustangs of Spanish descent under the Endangered Species Act of 1966. However, since the bill also called for the removal from public lands of all non-Spanish horses, it came under heavy opposition.[50] Federal protection for all free-roaming horses was ultimately accomplished by the Wild and Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971(WFRHBA).[51] The bill specifically stated: "A person claiming ownership of a horse or burro on the public lands shall be entitled to recover it only if recovery is permissible under the branding and estray laws of the State in which the animal is found."[52] which alleviated the problem of horses being rounded up under the auspices of belonging to local ranchers. From that time on, a trespass fee authorized under the Taylor Grazing Act was enforced on ranchers who claimed ownership of horses on public lands if they did not have a permit and paid fees to graze them.
Post-Horse Protection Act
[edit]From the passage of the WFRH&BA in 1971 to the present, the BLM oversees the protection and management of mustang herds on lands it administers, while the USFS does so on the National Forests.[51] A few free-ranging horses are also managed by the Fish and Wildlife Service [53] and National Park Service.[54] but for the most part they are not subject to management under the WFRH&BA.[55] There were approximately 17,300 horses (25,300 horses and burros) on the BLM-administered lands and 2,039 on National Forests[56] at the time of passage of the Act. The BLM has determined roughly 26,684 animals (horses and burros) to be the number that should be managed to be in compliance with the WFRHBA.[39] [g]
Hope Ryden
[edit]Geographic distribution
[edit]By the 21st century, the vast majority of free-roaming mustangs are found west of the Continental Divide. Roughly half are found in Nevada and most of the rest distributed across the rest of 10 western states in "herd management areas" (HMAs) [i] with the largest of those populations in California, Oregon, Utah and Wyoming.[57][58]
Characteristics
[edit]moved to main article, keeping text for consistency of source formatting
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[cmt] The original mustangs were Colonial Spanish horses, but many other breeds and types of horses contributed to the modern mustang, resulting in varying phenotypes. Mustangs of all body types are described as surefooted and having good endurance. They may be of any coat color.[59] Throughout all the BLM's HMAs, light riding horse type predominates, though a few horses with draft horse characteristics also exist (cite to Colorado and Idaho HMA), mostly kept separate from other mustangs and confined to specific areas.[60] [cmt] Genetic contributions to today's free-roaming mustang herds include assorted ranch horses that escaped to or were turned out on the public lands, and estray horses used by the United States Cavalry.[j] For example, in Idaho some Herd Management Areas (HMA) contain animals with known descent from Thoroughbred and Quarter Horse stallions turned out with feral herds.[63] The herds located in two HMAs in central Nevada produce Curly Horses.[64][65] Others, such as certain bands in Wyoming, have characteristics consistent with gaited horse breeds.[66] [cmt] Several bands have had DNA testing and are verified to have significant Spanish ancestry. These include the Kiger Mustang, the Cerbat Mustang,[60] and the Pryor Mountain Mustang.[67] Horses in several other HMAs retain Spanish horse traits, including dun coloration and primitive markings.[citation needed](additional sourcing) Other genetic herd studies, such as one done in 2002 on the bands in the Challis, Idaho area, show a very mixed blend of Spanish, North American gaited horse, draft horse and pony influences.[68] A 2010 study of the Pryor herd also showed that those mustangs shared genetic traits with other domestic horse breeds, presenting strong evidence that modern "wild" horses were not descended from a prehistoric subspecies that had survived in North America from prehistoric times.[67] [cmt] The now-defunct American Mustang Association developed a breed standard for those mustangs that carry morphological traits associated with the early Spanish horses. These include a well-proportioned body with a clean, refined head with wide forehead and small muzzle. The facial profile may be straight or slightly convex. Withers are moderate in height and the shoulder is to be "long and sloping." The standard considers a very short back, deep girth and muscular coupling over the loins as desirable. The croup is rounded, neither too flat nor goose-rumped. The tail is low-set. The legs are to be straight and sound. Hooves are round and dense.[59] Dun color and primitive markings are particularly common amongst horses of Spanish type.[citation needed] Height varies across the west, but most are small, generally 14 to 15 hands (56 to 60 inches, 142 to 152 cm), and not taller than 16 hands (64 inches, 163 cm), even in herds with draft or Thoroughbred ancestry.[citation needed][cmt] |
Spanish horses
[edit]The horses of Spain in the 15th century were known for their high quality. Some mustang herds in American still have Spanish genetics, though those with original genetics intact are rare and isolated.[69] Some Colonial Spanish Horse breeds developed in the Americas are thought to have some ancestry from early Mustangs that came up from Mexico along the Gulf Coast. These include the Choctaw horse and the Chickasaw horse,[70] though horses from Spanish Florida also contributed to those breeds.[citation needed]
The western Mustang herds that have clear phenotype of Spanish type, some verified by DNA testing, are:
- Pryor Mountain Mustang
- Kiger Horse
- Sulphur Springs Mustang
- Cerbat Mountain Mustang
Breeds with mustang ancestry
[edit][presume this will be expanded to explain sources and links]
- The Nez Perce people became horse breeders beginning in the early 1700s. They developed the leopard complex-spotted Appaloosa breed, though spotted horses were only about 10% of their original bloodstock.[71][72]
- Colonial Spanish Horse (includes horses in several registries, including the Spanish Mustang Registry which is the oldest.)
- Curly horse[citation needed]
- American Quarter Horse: Some Quarter Horse bloodlines originate with Thoroughbred stallions turned out with mares gathered from wild herds. Examples include the Steel Dust[71] and King Ranch[citation needed] lines.
- American Paint Horse, while today a breed that is based on recorded Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred bloodlines, the pinto coloration of the breed originates with the original Colonial Spanish horse.[71]
Notes
[edit]- ^ Tom L. McKnight c. 1929-2004, PhD Wisconsin 1955, professor of geography , UCLA.[13]
- ^ "Ed" de Steiguer PhD, professor at the University of Arizona. His doctorate is in forestry. [15]
- ^ The Great Plains west of the 100th meridian were also once known as the Great American Desert, due to their aridity and lack of trees.[24] However, further west were the true American deserts, the hot Sonoran, Mojave and Chihuahuan deserts, and numerous cold deserts
- ^ Although for the most part, the Native Americans in the Great Basin desert did not have horses, the Bannocks were an offshoot of the Northern Paiute in southern Oregon and northwest Oregon[29] that developed a horse culture. They may have the tribe that attacked a member of the Ogden party at the Humboldt Sinks in 1829.[30]
- ^ Even though she cited the source, page 297 of Ryden's 1970 version of The Last Wild Horses misrepresented the number and year, stating that there were 150,000 mustangs in 1934 (Ryden, Hope (1973) [1970]. America's Last Wild Horses. New York: Ballentine Books.). Although the page was removed in later versions of the book (Ryden, Hope (1978). America's Last Wild Horses: Newly Revised and Updated. New York: E.P. Dutton.), Sherrets (Rangeland Mgt.) apparently used Ryden's inaccurate year and number in his 1984 report.
- ^ McKnight's total numbers, 17,330-33,660, includes feral horse population estimates for Alaska, British Columbia and Alberta. And, again, after citing the source, Ryden's 1970 version of The Last Wild Horses misrepresented the number as simply being 33,000 "on Public Lands"</ref>
- ^ In March 2014 the population on the BLM administered lands was 40,815 horses and 8,394 burros. [39]
- ^ In the 1970 version of America's Last Wild Horses (Ryden, Hope (1973) [1970]. America's Last Wild Horses. New York: Ballentine Books.) the author derived the oft-repeated but implausible "at the beginning of the 20th century, an estimated 2 million wild horses roamed America’s ranges." (GAO, 1990) The pages (297 and 311) that asserted that fallacy were removed in the 1978 version (Ryden, Hope (1978). America's Last Wild Horses: Newly Revised and Updated. New York: E.P. Dutton.), but in 1990, the GAO published a report using the redacted information from the 1970 version. The GAO retracted the quoted assertion in a later 2008 report.
- ^ Herd Areas are regions where the horses were roaming in 1971 and Herd Management Areas are places determined by the BLM as able to sustain a healthy population of horses[citation needed].
- ^ Examples include the Herd Management Areas in California and Idaho.[61]"California–Wild Horses & Burros". Bureau of Land Management. Retrieved 1 June 2015.</ref>[62]
References
[edit]- ^ "Online Etymology Dictionary". etymonline.com. Retrieved 21 May 2015.
- ^ http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mesteño
- ^ a b c Jones, C. Allen (2005). Texas Roots: Agriculture and Rural Life Before the Civil War. College Station: Texas A&M University Press. p. 74.
- ^ Smead, Robert N. (January 1, 2005). Vocabulario Vaquero/Cowboy Talk: A Dictionary of Spanish Terms from the American West. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press. p. 136.
- ^ De Steiguer, p. 141
- ^ Latta, Frank Forrest (1980). Joaquín Murrieta and His Horse Gangs. Santa Cruz: Bear State Books. p. 84.
- ^ a b c d Dobie, The Mustangs pp. 107-109
- ^ (de Steiger loc 1836 first page of chapter 7)
- ^ Young and Sparks Cattle in the Cold Desert page 217.
- ^ http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/wo/Planning_and_Renewable_Resources/wild_horses_and_burros/wh_b_on_the_range.Par.36964.File.dat/MT%20Historical%20Society%20article.pdf
- ^ Ryden, America's Last Wild Horses p. 129
- ^ Wyman Wild Horse p. 91
- ^ "Tom McKnight obituary". Association of American Geographers. 2004. Retrieved 28 June 2015.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
McKnight511
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ "J. Edward de Steiguer". deSteiguer.com. Retrieved July 4, 2015.
- ^ de Steiguer, loc2253unclear citation All I have is the kindle edition of de Steiguer. A page number would be preferable.
- ^ Ford, John Salmon (2010) [1987]. Rip Ford's Texas. University of Texas Press. pp. 143–144. ISBN 0292770340.
- ^ a b Givens, Murphy (November 23, 2011). "Chasing mustangs in the Wild Horse Desert". Corpus Christi Caller Times. Retrieved June 29, 2015.
- ^ Dobie, The Mustangs p. 316
- ^ Wyman page 159
- ^ Dobie, The Mustangs p. 321
- ^ Amaral Mustang p. 12
- ^ http://www.horseoftheamericas.com/uploads/3/1/3/7/3137829/preservation_of_the_colonial_spanish_horse_patterson.pdf
- ^ http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtid=2&psid=3148
- ^ Stoppato, Marco; Bini, Alfredo; Eklund, Linda M. (2003). Deserts. Firefly Books. p. 228. ISBN 1552976696.
- ^ Smith, Jedediah (1977)The Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of the Journey to California 1826-1827. Edited and with an introduction by George R. Brooks p 172. Glendale, CA, Bison Books, Reprinted 1989.
- ^ a b Morin, Honest Horses p. 3"
- ^ Berger, Wild Horses page 36.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Britannica46
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Wheeler, Sessions S (2003). Nevada's Black Rock Desert. Caxton Press. p. 98.
- ^ Young and Sparks Cattle in the Cold Desert, p. 215
- ^ Young and Sparks Cattle in the Cold Desert pp. 216-7
- ^ de Steiguer, loc2595
- ^ a b Sherrets, Rangeland Management p. 40
- ^ Amaral, Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses p. 135.
- ^ Young and Sparks, Cattle in the Cold Desert p. 217
- ^ Sherrets
- ^ Wyman, Wild Horse p, 161
- ^ a b c "Myths and Facts". www.blm.gov. Retrieved 2015-07-05.
- ^ Amaral, Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses p. 139
- ^ Sharp, "Overview of the Taylor Grazing Act" p. 9
- ^ "BLM and Its Predecessors". www.blm.gov. Retrieved 2015-03-17.
- ^ Amaral, Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses pp. 139-141)
- ^ McKnight page 519
- ^ "History of the Program". www.blm.gov. Retrieved 2015-03-17.
- ^ https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/47
- ^ Ryden, America's Last Wild Horses p. 233
- ^ http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/nv/field_offices/las_vegas_field_office/wild_horse___burro/las_vegas_herd_management.Par.9168.File.dat/NWHR2.pdf
- ^ http://www.nmautah.org/
- ^ Ryden, 1970, p. 236
- ^ a b "History and Facts". www.blm.gov. Retrieved 2015-07-05.
- ^ http://www.wildhorseandburro.blm.gov/92-195.htm
- ^ http://www.fws.gov/sheldonhartmtn/sheldon/horseburro.html
- ^ http://www.thehorse.com/articles/35557/managing-feral-horses-on-national-park-service-lands
- ^ http://www.nps.gov/thro/learn/nature/feral-wild-horses.htm
- ^ http://contentdm.library.unr.edu/cdm/ref/collection/nevagpub/id/1088
- ^ "Wild and Free-Roaming Horse and Burro populations as of March 1, 2013" (PDF). Bureau of Land Management. March 1, 2013. Retrieved 1 June 2015.
- ^ BLM HMA Map
- ^ a b Hendricks, Bonnie L. (2007). International encyclopedia of horse breeds (Pbk. ed.). Norman: University of Oklahoma Press. pp. 18–19, 301–303. ISBN 9780806138848. Retrieved 29 May 2015.
- ^ a b "Breeds of Livestock - Mustang (Horse)". Department of Animal Science - Oklahoma State University. May 7, 2002. Retrieved 29 May 2015.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
CaliforniaBLM
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ "Idaho's Wild Horse Program". Bureau of Land Management. Retrieved 1 June 2015.
- ^ "Idaho's Wild Horse Program". Bureau of Land Management. Retrieved 1 June 2015.
- ^ "ROCKY HILLS HMA". blm.gov. 9 January 2008. Retrieved 14 June 2015.
- ^ "CALLAGHAN HMA". blm.gov. 9 January 2008. Retrieved 14 June 2015.
- ^ "dividebasin". blm.gov. 5 March 2013. Retrieved 4 June 2015.
- ^ a b Cothran, E. Gus. "Genetic Analysis of the Pryor Mountains HMA, MT" (PDF). Department of Veterinary Integrative Bioscience Texas A&M University.
- ^ "Challis HMA". blm.gov. 12 August 2013. Retrieved 4 June 2015.
- ^ "Wild Horse and Burro Program Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)". United States Forest Service. March 28, 2013. Retrieved June 17, 2015.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Bennett329
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ a b c "Wild Horse and Burro Program: Did You Know?". United States Forest Service. March 28, 2013. Retrieved June 17, 2015.
- ^ Twombly, Matthew; Baptista, Fernando G (March 2014). "Return of a Native". National Geographic. Retrieved June 11, 2015.
Sources
[edit]- Amaral, Anthony (1977). Mustang: Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses. Reno: University of Nevada Press.
- Bennett, Deb (1998). Conquerors : the roots of New World horsemanship (1st ed. ed.). Solvang, Calif.: Amigo Publications. ISBN 0-9658533-0-6.
{{cite book}}
:|edition=
has extra text (help)
- De Steiguer, J.Edward (2011). Wild Horses of the West: History and Politics of America's Mustangs. Tucson: University of Arizona Press. ISBN 9780816528264.
- Dobie, Frank (1934). The Mustangs (paperback, 2005 ed.). Boston: Little, Brown and Company. ISBN 9780803266506.
- Haines, Francis (July 1938). "The Northward Spread of Horses Among the Plains Indians" (PDF). American Anthropologist. 40 (3): 429–437. Retrieved June 13, 2015.
- Haines, Francis (January 1938). "Where Did the Plains Indians Get Their Horses?". American Anthropologist. 40 (1): 112–117. Retrieved May 19, 2015.
- McKnight, Tom L. (October 1959). "The Feral Horse in Anglo-America". Geographical Review. 49 (4): 506–525. Retrieved June 14, 2015.
- Morin, Paula (2006). Honest Horses: Wild Horses in the Great Basin. Reno and Las Vegas: University of Nevada Press. ISBN 0874176735.
- Ryden, Hope (2005) [1990]. America's Last Wild Horses: The Classic Study of the Mustangs--Their Pivotal Role in the History of the West, Their Return to the Wild, and the Ongoing Efforts to Preserve Them. Guilford: Lyons and Burford. ISBN 1592288731.
- Sherrets, Harold (1984). The Taylor Grazing Act, 1934-1984, 50 Years of Progress, Impacts of Wild Horses on Rangeland Management. Boise: U. S. Dept. of Interior, Bureau of Land Management Idaho State Office.
- Wyman, Walker D. (1966) [1945.]. The Wild Horse of the West. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press.
- Young, James A.; Sparks, B. Abbott (1992) [1985.]. Cattle in the Cold Desert Expanded Edition. Reno and Las Vegas: University of Nevada Press.
Further Reading
[edit]- Denhardt, Robert M. (1975) [1947]. The Horse of the Americas. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press.
- Roe, Frank Gilbert (1974) [1955]. The Indian and the Horse. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press.
Discussion
[edit]Glad you're liking the map more! I'll play with it more this week, figure out how to make arrows, play with the colors and put on the arrival years.
- Probably don't need as many dates as Haines used, probably won't fit, but hit the major ones. A hack I use because I don't have photoshop and am just stuck with a basic draw program is to make a teeny-tiny straight line with an arrow (which is the same size no matter the length of line, it's based on line thickness) and pop it over the top of the relevant spot where I want it... Montanabw(talk) 16:24, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm using an actual cartographic program, but I'm not an expert in it. I'll figure out how to make it work.Lynn (SLW) (talk) 17:29, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Good luck, then. I actually do think the map is going to be an excellent addition to the article, and I've had enough problems working with computer graphics in general to respect the time and effort it takes to create these. Montanabw(talk) 18:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
I rearranged the history section a little bit. There's some overlap in the years because of the different histories of the original Spanish mustangs and the modern ones. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 15:28, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- I put foo in the date section headings, as I think that researching the patterns may change how this breaks down, and I also think this will, eventually, get rid of the overlap. I already moved some stuff from one section to the other. Based in the sources stating that the bloodstock for USA mustangs most likely first originated out of the Santa Fe area, I took 1600 as one cutoff date, based on Oñate showing up there in 1598. (I also don't care if you want to change 1600 to 1598, round numbers just looked better). Montanabw(talk) 16:21, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah but they didn't really start being dispersed from Santa Fe until about 1675-the Pueblo revolt. Then, by 1790, they had made to to Texas, and further out late on.Lynn (SLW) (talk) 17:29, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- The Pueblo revolt appears to have given a big boost, yes, but Haines indicates Indian horse culture evidence by 1650 and his map shows horses in the north even earlier. Though I need a better source, this indicates that the Shoshone were a horse culture by 1730, and in the Northern Plains. Found a new source stating that raiding by the Comanche dates to 1659 and the Pawnee had horses by 1680. Texas must have been a latecomer to the party. Frankly, that's another good reason to include the Continental divide on the map, it appears that North-South distribution happened more easily than east-west distribution. Montanabw(talk) 18:14, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ooops. I meant that Texas had horses by 1690. As far as the Shoshone, they probably got horses from two sources. The Wind River group probably got them from the Comanche, who would have taken them north along the Colorado front range. The Wind River Shoshone ranged on both side of the Continental Divide, probably making use of South Pass, and had given rise to the Comanche. The Lemhi Shoshone (the ones Lewis and Clark encountered) were further west, in the Snake River country (they were also known as "Snake" Indians.) They probably got their horses from their Ute cousins (they both were in the Numic family), then took them west. Haines map shows the Ute-Shoshone distribution (the Utes ranged in western Colorado and eastern Utah), but not the Comanche-Shoshone. But yes, the distribution would follow the water. So, it runs south-north along the mountain ranges to take advantage of the periodic streams coming down, or follows the west-east river corridors east of the Continental Divide, or east-west (Snake, then Columbia) west of it. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 18:40, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sounds reasonable, now all we need to do is properly source it. Um, yes, I'm quite familiar with the Shoshone, I live in Montana, I've been fed stories of Lewis and Clark and Sacajawea (in all three spellings and multiple pronunciations) since forever (grin). That said, not sure how much the sources will split out the various branches of the Shoshone beyond the split with the Comanche. Or when. But sources, sources, sources. Perhaps there is some scholarly works that will help; what do you think of that book on the Comanche I noted above as "new source" - for as far as it goes and with all caveats that more accurate and more recent material can of course supercede it? Montanabw(talk) 21:00, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Looks like an okay reference to me. University of Oklahoma Press-any academic press publication should be considered reliable, even if older. Most of these dates are educated guesses on the parts of the authors, and more recent ones aren't necessarily better. Roe is about the same vintage-unfortunately it will be over a week before I have access to my copy again-but it would be interesting to see if he corroborates Hoebel and Wallace, and what he says about the Shoshone. But this source talks about the Comanche-Shoshone dispersal, which may be "new" information developed after the 1950s. Which makes me wonder if the Ute-Shoshone dispersal should now be questioned. The Utes, once they had horses, used to foray frequently into Santa Fe to trade, and so there may be a mistaken conception that they originally took horses from there to eastern Utah. It may be that the horse went from the Comanche, to the Wind River Shoshone, to the Lemhi Shoshone to the Utes, who were then able to complete the circle by traveling to Santa Fe to trade. The northern or Uintah Utes would capture the Great Basin Indians, (who had no horses or guns and were very vulnerable) and take them to Santa Fe to trade as slaves for guns and other goods. It got to the point the Spanish passed a law against trading guns to the Indians because they were becoming so well armed.
- Also, the National Mall site talks about the Apache and Navajo having horses, and they definitely did, but probably not so many that escapees could form feral herds to any real extent. Horses are tough to keep in the desert-they have to range so far to get enough to eat. So, their role in the subject of mustang history would be limited. Also, the website talks about the Apache and Navajo trading horses to the Utes. It could be a similar situation to what I suggested for the Shoshone, that the Uncompahgre Utes and the Uintah Utes were getting horses from different sources. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 01:40, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
My take on the Smithsonian museum pages is that they are going to be pretty reliable as far as they go, but they don't go very far, but the focus is on the horses. As far as when and where the horses of Native people went, the point is not so much the point at which horses went from tame to feral so much as when they got to a given geographic place, however they got there. It must be noted that the horse itself evolved to be at home in a cold, dry climate, so sparse desert forage, if anything, argues in favor of more horses straying off to find food. I take no position on the Utes, my own knowledge of horse cultures is stronger for the Crow, Shoshone, Nez Perce, and other northern plains people. As we have discussed, depending on location, today's Mustang population includes everything from the near-pure Spanish herd that hid out in the Pryors, to the military remounts that got loose in California, to the half-draft stuff turned loose in Idaho during the 1930s. Nevada is probably in the situation it is in today due to how late it was settled and hence the large amounts of federal land there. On that note, I wonder how the Desert Lands Act impacted Nevada and if it had an impact on feral horse herds? Montanabw(talk) 16:28, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment on the Northern/Southern Plains question: I think we will mostly have to go with what our sources say rather than our own opinions, as even the experts seem to vary: If we look at maps like this and especially the BLM, they include most of Colorado and Kansas as "Southern" plains, even a bit north of the Platte River. This map extends into Nebraska and small parts of Wyoming and South Dakota, and the home page indicates, vaguely, that they view the whole region as "southern plains." Great_Plains (which, for our purposes is not a RS but if well footnoted, can lead us there) has contradictory definitions, the NOAA puts their "southern plains" designation to cover a very small area, and the USGS appears not to use the designation at all. So again, sources, sources. meh! Montanabw(talk) 06:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Consensus?
[edit]Concluded discussion
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To avoid freaking out other people who may be watchlisting the article, I'd like to add stuff in small bits, let it sit a few days, then add other small bits as consensus develops. (I realize consensus is developing quite slowly, but I think there is some consensus.) To that end, I would like to add the "Prehistory" and "Return 1493–1600" sections to the "History" section in the article, eliminating only the first paragraph of that section to be replaced with these. I acknowledge other material there remains in dispute, and the History and Ancestry sections will no doubt ultimately wind up being merged and revised into the material we are working on above, but... baby steps. I don't want to make the perfect the enemy of the good, but I know that popping in a wholesale rewrite on a high-controversy article often triggers a lot of discussion. So, are you OK with one of both of those two sections? I feel more research and work is needed on the rest before it's ready to go live. Montanabw(talk) 16:35, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Per the above, we can't really use 1650 or 1630 any more than we can use Dobie's two million horses as "drop dead numbers." They are learned estimates based on information available. While Haines is probably in the right ballpark with his estimates, they are for Native people having a horse culture, not dispersal of wild herds; and it's clear from the outset that the Spanish weren't exactly careful about fencing in their animals. I'd say keep the heading general, explain what the various dates mean and why in the article text. we need to do more research. Bennett, at 335-336 (link to book notes Onate losing a bunch of horses circa 1600 and raiding by about 1609. So I think we can use Haines for the end dates - i.e. horses were definitely at location X by date Y, but not for earliest possible... real important not to play too loose with the sources. Stick to them, but only as far as they go... Montanabw(talk) 03:16, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
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Consensus 2?
[edit]Any possibility of moving the first part of the "Characteristics" section (the bit before the "Spanish horses" subsection) to mainspace, creating a new section - which we can expand further as we solidify the other material? Or maybe just the first two paragraphs? I know there is a lot more that could be said, but if we have an adequate opening overview, it is a need that other editors did identify and something definitely missing from the article. (Doesn't have to go in right away, maybe we can tweak it for a day or two) On most horse breed/type articles, we put the characteristics first, particularly because the average reader wants to answer the question"what do they look like?" before getting into lots of details. That's not a hard and fast rule, though. But here, given how complicated everything else is going to get, I think a quick overview is best put early on, even before the Etymology section. Montanabw(talk) 23:02, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
- Double-checking if you have concerns about moving the Characteristics bit into the main article? Montanabw(talk) 07:20, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Southern Great Plains
[edit]Dobie didn't compare the northern Great Plains to Spain, it was the southern Great Plains. There, and California, is where the horses really thrived, and there were reports of "thousands" of them. I'm not aware of anywhere else where there were extensive feral herds documented-seems like the reports of large herds elsewhere are in the possession of Native Americans. And, I'm okay with taking out the Ryden endnote, as long as we leave in the other one. There's a lot of confusion over the Shoshone horse culture-most people don't realize that not all the Shoshone had one. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 10:18, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
- Basically, whatever we say has to be verified by the source we cite, preferably with a pinpoint cite to the page concerned (if the source has pages, at least). If it's properly verified, then we also have to pay some attention to WP:UNDUE (absent solid population figures prior to 1930, we have to tread carefully as to which areas were more important or where horses "really thrived"; the inland Pacific Northwest, particularly areas like Southeastern Washington and Central Oregon were a very significant horse region, still home to the Horse Heaven Hills, etc. As far as the Shoshone, it's all about sourcing. (i.e. even stuff "Everyone knows" like how Lewis and Clark got horses to cross the Continental Divide from Sacajawea's band...has to be sourced...) Montanabw(talk) 17:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, but I'm not saying they really thrived there in the article. I'm just saying that's why it's justified to put in that Dobie said it. It's sourced solidly to him.
Lynn (SLW) (talk) 12:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't want to get hung up on proving that the southern Great Plains were "better" than the Pacific Northwest, or the Northern Plains, or California, or wherever. I think we need to just follow the documentation where it leads us. (What is kind of interesting is the link between limestone soils and horse distribution, see the "carbonite" soils on the map here compare the bluegrass country of Kentucky to various parts of the west... SYNTH to draw a conclusion, but isn't it interesting?) What's pretty clear is that when the Great Basin tribes got horses, they pretty much got the h*** out of the Great Basin because it was a lousy place to survive! But, for various reasons, we now have a population explosion of mustangs in Nevada, so this article does need to trace how that happened. FWIW, we also need a better source than that Cabrillo College page, while it looks decent and is probably accurate, it's apparently lecture notes or something from a 2-year community college, author presumably this guy, but it's unsourced. But we may not need all that info here, anyway, some of it could go into the article on the Shoshone people... Montanabw(talk) 21:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, my thoughts are, if we can't use a source from community college professor, then that's gong to put a lot of other sources in jeopardy. I think using the source in an endnote should be fine for now. And, I think you misread the author a bit. It's confusing because they are lumping all the tribes together as the "Great Basin" culture, even though only about half the geographic area involved is actually within the Great Basin. The different references to the Great Basin are depicted on this map. I used the actual hydrographic boundary (the purple one) of the GB on the map I made, but really, it's the provincial (black) boundary that is actually more relevant to horse-culture/no horse-culture. I could change that, and we could explain the differences by referencing the NPS map. So, no, they didn't get horses and leave the "GB proper", as the author is referring to the provincial GB, they were actually in the Snake and Colorado river basins. Anyway, I was just happy to find something that backed up everything I was saying until we can find more solid sources. As far as the Southern Great Plains being better, it's not a judgement call, it's just what happened. The Spanish brought over horses adapted to a warm, dry, grassy environment, and they thrived in similar environments here, as documented in many sources. It's not to say there weren't plenty of other horses in other places, but early 'mustang" (actual feral horses) history is centered in the southern great plains. And, I checked out the map you linked to, but it went to sinkholes. But, I wouldn't be surprised that a high calcium carbonate (limestone) soil would produce grasses that horses thrive upon. Seems like grasses do better in a more alkali than acidic environment.Lynn (SLW) (talk) 12:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, it was about sinkholes but the "carbonite" soils are limestone soils (I was looking for maps of limestone soils and this was the best I could find; I guess one goes with the other... lol) Montanabw(talk) 03:38, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, my thoughts are, if we can't use a source from community college professor, then that's gong to put a lot of other sources in jeopardy. I think using the source in an endnote should be fine for now. And, I think you misread the author a bit. It's confusing because they are lumping all the tribes together as the "Great Basin" culture, even though only about half the geographic area involved is actually within the Great Basin. The different references to the Great Basin are depicted on this map. I used the actual hydrographic boundary (the purple one) of the GB on the map I made, but really, it's the provincial (black) boundary that is actually more relevant to horse-culture/no horse-culture. I could change that, and we could explain the differences by referencing the NPS map. So, no, they didn't get horses and leave the "GB proper", as the author is referring to the provincial GB, they were actually in the Snake and Colorado river basins. Anyway, I was just happy to find something that backed up everything I was saying until we can find more solid sources. As far as the Southern Great Plains being better, it's not a judgement call, it's just what happened. The Spanish brought over horses adapted to a warm, dry, grassy environment, and they thrived in similar environments here, as documented in many sources. It's not to say there weren't plenty of other horses in other places, but early 'mustang" (actual feral horses) history is centered in the southern great plains. And, I checked out the map you linked to, but it went to sinkholes. But, I wouldn't be surprised that a high calcium carbonate (limestone) soil would produce grasses that horses thrive upon. Seems like grasses do better in a more alkali than acidic environment.Lynn (SLW) (talk) 12:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- PS. I was navigating around the Cabrillo website a little more and found this TOC. If I was to contact Chuck Smith and ask him to link the lecture to the rest of the content and put his name on it, would you feel better about it?Lynn (SLW) (talk) 14:46, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- I do think you make a decent point that college/university sources in general are apt to be reasonably notable, here authorship would help, yes; otherwise it could be some kid's term paper. We don't need peer-reviewed scholarly journals for everything (though where they exist, they can help, sometimes - if they aren't filled with nonsense...sigh ). Montanabw(talk) 03:38, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
All that said, I'm kind of fuzzy where we are going with all of this; I think it may be time to just start writing/editing content again and see what develops; it seems to work well for us to just write and then critique heavily. Perhaps you should port over your "Great Basin" subsection from the other sandbox and refine it into whatever it is you are wanting to explain. I am guessing (in good faith) that your point is basically "horses didn't originally migrate into the Great Basin proper, but today there are craploads of them because... reasons foo." And I do agree that is worth working on; just shouldn't dominate the article. (FWIW that BLM page I'm working on indicates just under half of all free-roaming Mustangs are in Nevada, but that means that half of them aren't - also there is the holding facility problem that is only lightly touched on here - but saw a stat that currently there are more Mustangs in holding facilities (not counting adopted animals) than are in the wild.) Montanabw(talk) 03:38, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think that all the horses in holding are a huge problem. But, we can't solve that here. I just want to dispel the myth that there were millions of horses where they are now hundreds of years ago, until the ranchers came in and started kicking them off, so all we need to do is kick the cows off and let things go back to the way they were and everything will be fine. That may have been what happened on the southern Great Plains, but not in the Great Basin. Whatever your or anyone's feelings are about the cows, their presence or absence has no bearing on the fact that the horse population has to be controlled, and something must be done with the excess animals. My opinion is that the base population should be decreased so that the adoption demand can absorb the excess-identify the herds that have unique genetics and just zero out the rest, as discussed here figuring out what to do with the excess until they die natural deaths. Really, putting them on sanctuaries back on the southern Great Plains is going full circle, and those horses are pretty happy munching grass out there instead of starving on the desert. I wish Madeleine Pickens had invested in ranches there instead of her ill-informed venture in Nevada. But regardless, we can't come up with reasonable solutions until everyone is working with accurate information. So, my goal is that, if people are coming to wikipedia to get background information on mustangs, that that information is accurate. As far as only half of the current free-ranging horses being in Nevada, yes, but the GB desert also extends into western Utah, southern Oregon and southern California. So, if you include those HMAs, you're looking at about 80% of the horse population. I'm not as focused on Nevada as you think, but since so many of the horses are there, it just keeps coming up.
- I was pretty much out of pocket this weekend, but over the next week I should be able to get back into the swing of things. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 11:14, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- No worries about time, the wiki is never finished. I'm all for accurate, so long it is comprehensive and balanced. I guess my take on all of this is that we have two different things going on; historic distribution and range of mustangs versus the present-day post-1971 situation. As for solutions, we can agree that horses were late to the Great Basin — at least Nevada— and yet that's where the population is today. But it all needs to be in context. We also agree that allowing horses to overgraze the range is in no one's interest. But, I will note that there are certain types of "desert" country that is fine for horse habitat — but absent natural predation, we have a problem. I have this book and it has some good info on horse habitat generally, may be useful in some context in this article. Montanabw(talk) 06:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Section headings and my brain
[edit]I'm finding it more useful to keep section headings with dates, as this is the history section. As I work through the sources (thank you for locating page numbers!) I'm seeing a structure come together. We may find that we need to create a second section on geographic distribution later, (though maybe not) so I restored that bit temporarily, even though it's got some redundant material (OK to toss what's already in elsewhere!). This is just how my brain works. Open to ideas for doing it better. (See, e.g. how the WikiProject Equine team did the history section of Arabian horse - we could stay chronological up to a point, but then had to split up and go geographically - just FWIW). Montanabw(talk) 01:25, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
17th and 18th century wrapup
[edit]done
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What else do we need to add to the 17th and 18th century section before taking it live? Is it ready for prime time with consensus or do we need to change content or add more? Montanabw(talk) 20:38, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
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19th and 20th century discussion
[edit]inactive discussion, hatting for convenience
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The section on the 19th century (1800s) is going to be a bugbear, as this will be where we have to wrestle with the "two million horses" thing, I think it's doable, and you actually have a great start on the assessment there, but I'm going to have to drag out my (warped and water-damaged) hardcopy of Dobie and we each will no doubt have to sit on the floor with about five books open (and crash the computer with open browser tabs) to figure out what actually went on versus what people wished was going on... meh. Montanabw(talk) 20:38, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
As for Ryden, we (OK, probably you because you have the old books) may have to work up a separate section on her here in the sandbox - I don't think I have any of her books, only the online version (might have an older one in the local library). Your point that we have to explain the evolution of her own writing and research and the BLM documents derived from it is well-taken. So, rather than assorted endfootnotes and scattered asides, maybe put all of it together and then we can figure out what to pop in where? Montanabw(talk) 23:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Yup, more reasons this is so complex. (D'oh!) I think we could backtrack a bit and maybe add to the etymology section as far as what and when "Mustang" was used. I think it was the de Steiguer book that said something about origins of the word. I also found a cool resource called the Dictionary of American Regional English down at my local library and used it a few years ago to resolve a dispute over the origins and pronunciation of chaps. It's a good source. Montanabw(talk) 18:37, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
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New discussion
[edit]I have done a couple things while I've been away from wiki these last few days. First off, I casually grabbed a copy of this month's Archaeology magazine - because it had a story about horses on the cover ;-) - and it can source the bit on how the horse moved Native Americans to a dog and foot-based culture to a horse culture. I'll craft up some phrasing, but I'd like to add a bit on that to (most likely) the 17th and 18th century section, and delete the parallel bit that's in there. Second, I was at the local library and while there grabbed the big copy of the Oxford English Dictionary and photocopied the page on "Mustang," I think we can update the etymology section a bit more with that. Stay tuned. Montanabw(talk) 03:18, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
- Sounds good. I've been keeping busy. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 17:01, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, I've been carrying around the photocopies from the OED in my laptop case for a week now... meh! Summer in the Rockies: busy time... but short. Montanabw(talk) 06:00, 16 July 2015 (UTC)