Talk:Muriel a oranžová smrt

Prose copy-edit

Antonin; was Muriel a oranžová smrt published at all during the occupation, or did the censor turn it down? What happened to the first part? I'm assuming it was published but I think you need to summarise it, for the plot section to make sense; maybe we need a dramatis personae list of sorts. OK, have read around the topic and struck the now-redundant queries. I might have severed some statements from their sources - I'm afraid I cant tell. I know you're scrupulous in this respect - hope I've not mixed things up too much. Haploidavey (talk) 22:43, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

The article looks far better than before. I don't think you've confused anything :) Nice work. Thank you. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 08:53, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, just one minor thing:

Current revision:

• The Orange Planet is a satirical parallel to Czechoslovakian life under Soviet control in the 1960s. Most of the men serve the Planet's enormous army. Women serve its requirements for heavy labour and heavy industry[10]

My version:

• The description and depiction of the Orange Planet bears a close similarity to a commonly accepted vision of the Soviet Union in Czechoslovakia during the 1960s. The heavy industry on the Orange Planet and other labours were executed mainly by women, the males usually served in an enormous army.[10]

My source for this claim, the excellent monography by Helena Diesing, explains this as a self-evident fact: The Soviet Union was a country where women worked hardly and men spent their time in the "comfort of army routine". Indeed, it was one of the ways how Czechs viewed Soviets in the 1960s (and later), however, the formulation could be confusing for an English reader. Therefore I explained the matter in a more neutral way: it was "a commonly accepted vision of the Soviet Union in Czechoslovakia during the 1960s". In any case, the situation on the Orange Planet is a parallel to the life in the Soviet Union. Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 16:19, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, that's quite different from what I've said, isn't it? In effect, we should speak of "Czech visions or understanding of life in the Soviet Union"; or something like. My confusion probably stems from a misreading of Soviet Union in Czechoslovakia. I'll fix it. It should probably incorporate your summary or translation of Diesing: The Soviet Union was a country where women worked hardly and men spent their time in the "comfort of army routine". Yes? The sense is different, of course. Haploidavey (talk) 16:29, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

No problem, it was me who started the confusion :) Of course, we could present this fact as an opinion of Diesing. I just think it is quite important for the article. Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 16:59, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

(Post edit-conflict.) I've changed the text somewhat, but I'm glad you suggested that, because on consideration, this seems a socially, morally and psychologically complex issue. It sounds as if "Saudek's Orange Planet" objectifies women as labour chattels and erotic objects. But what exactly is he getting at, viv a vis the Soviet Union? And I was about to ask - "Does Diesing have anything to say on the matter with reference to Saudeck/The Orange Planet?" Haploidavey (talk) 17:05, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Perfect! That's exactly what I wanted to say. All Saudek's works depict women as erotic objects, no matter what is the topic ... :) I'll try to find out more in Diesing, unfortunately I don't have my books at hand right now. Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 17:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Please do try, because the whole thing screams out for comment from secondary sources. Mind you, that shouldn't stop this going to DYK as it is, and post-haste, if that's what you wish. Haploidavey (talk) 17:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The DYK nomination isn't so important, but I think the current version is in accordance with the sources. I'm sure I forgot to re-read some articles on the topic (I recall something in Reflex and in other newspapers/magazines, it is all in my archive of newspaper cuttings :) I'll work on it as soon as possible. Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 17:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Handy new material - but I think we can avoid repetitions if we re-structure what we have. I'm thinking of a more chronological approach: Intro, then background (including invasion), then plot and content (after all, it was ready for publication in 1970), leading on to more detail on why political "reforms" and censorship made its publication impossible at the time; then a little on responses to its eventual publication (we already have something about this in the lede, ever so briefly) and finally, style and observations thereon. Haploidavey (talk) 12:41, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

(to left) I realize that my new additions are scattered without logic .. I have got a cold and my thoughts are inconsistent as well. I feel like I'm underwater or something :) I found a good summary in one of the sources already cited in the article. The publishing of the book in 2009 attracted the attention of major Czech newspapers and media, but they all only repeat words of Tomáš Prokůpek (foremost Czech comics expert, the editor and author of the epilogue of the book). Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 13:15, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that. Swim up to the surface when you're fit and ready - take things easy and get well soon, eh? Whisky's the thing. Yum. I've made a straight copy and paste from the lede's last two sentences into article space. If these can be expanded, great. If not, I don't think it a major fault. Haploidavey (talk) 13:20, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the structure is far better now. Thank you, you did a lot for this article and I appreciate that. Thanks also for the whisky advice :) Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 13:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Reform and invasion in 1968

The current text says that the Soviet occupation of Czechoslovakia in August 1968 was "supported by a newly reformed Czechoslovak communist regime". Is the phrase "newly reformed" meant to refer to the changes to the regime earlier in 1968 (the Prague Spring period), or to the restructuring that happened after the August invasion? As I understand it, the reform-communist leaders associated with the Prague Spring, such as Alexander Dubcek, initially spoke out against the August 68 invasion, and were afterwards taken to Moscow as prisoners. (See Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia which references are given.) Kalidasa 777 (talk) 00:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The phrase referred to the restructuring that happened after the August invasion, but I agree that the current wording is more clear. Thank you. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 07:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)