Talk:Murder of Sophie Lancaster

This article was nominated for deletion on 15 December 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Discrimination Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

England Low‑importance

	England portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Greater Manchester Low‑importance

	Greater Manchester portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greater Manchester, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greater Manchester on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Greater ManchesterWikipedia:WikiProject Greater ManchesterTemplate:WikiProject Greater ManchesterGreater Manchester articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Lancashire and Cumbria Mid‑importance

	North West England portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lancashire and Cumbria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Lancashire and Cumbria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Lancashire and CumbriaWikipedia:WikiProject Lancashire and CumbriaTemplate:WikiProject Lancashire and CumbriaLancashire and Cumbria articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.

Law Low‑importance

	Law portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Sociology Low‑importance

	Society portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

United Kingdom Low‑importance

	United Kingdom portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women articles

Archives

Archive 1

Trial

Trial Commences 10th March 2008... the 5 named are as follows on Lancashire court web site, they will appear before HIS HONOUR JUDGE RUSSELL QC RECORDER OF PRESTON in Court number 10 :

http://www.courtnews1.co.uk/courtlists/current/prest_T080310.02.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.175.149.54 (talk)

Witness Intimidation

Joseph Hulme was also reportedly arrested for witness intimidation and bailed out, although charges for this weren't brough. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/03/ukcrime.sophielancaster — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:18C:4300:2950:45B:53E1:822B:7773 (talk) 20:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mention of non-notable book and author in Media reaction section

The paragraph about about Bizarre's "Proud to be Different" campaign is sufficient. The next paragraph, with a tenuous link to the murder of Sophie, gives undue weight to a selfpublished book by non-notable author. Other attempts at promoting this book, by several belligerent IPs, have been removed from the City of London Police, 7 July 2005 London bombings and 21 July 2005 London bombings articles. I think the article would benefit from the removal of this paragraph. Grim²³ ★ 03:35, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This book was published with a dedication to Sophie with her mother's permission. While not notable and indeed self published why is Wierdo Mosher Freak included here (also non notable) while this book is considered irrelevant even though author was interviewed in Bizarre magazine in March 2010 about this and has auctioned a signed copy with profits going to the Sophie Lancaster foundation?

--189.248.87.125 (talk) 00:53, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The book Weirdo.Mosher.Freak is entirely about the Sophie Lancaster murder, and has independent reviews in addition to the reference in the article. [this link is bad because Wikipedia is blocking it: www.aboutmyarea.co.uk/Lancashire/Rossendale/BB4/News/Local-News/171332-WEIRDO-MOSHER-FREAK-(if-only-theyd-stopped-at-name-The-Murder-of-Sophie-Lancaster] [1] [2] [3] Its inclusion in this article seems appropriate to me.

The book Stab Proof Scarecrows (I think its title should have been Stab-proof Scarecrows) is an opinion by its author about what he perceives is wrong with policing in Britain. From the cited reference plus these [4] [5] [6] [7] it seems Lance Manley (the author) is using the Sophie Lancaster murder as justification for his opinions rather than providing facts about it. Lance Manley is quoted "I have dedicated my book to Sophie with her mother Sylvia's permission. One chapter is about her attack and why it was one reason I resigned from the police."[8] While these views might be relevant to an article about policing in Britain, they seem somewhat tangential to this article. I haven't read the book, but if it does contain some fact about the Sophie Lancaster murder then that fact should be added to this article with this book as its reference.

Jim Craigie (talk) 13:31, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Book contains facts about the Sophie Lancaster murder in a chapter entitled "S.O.P.H.I.E Lancaster" and also mentions the charity in its glossary. Further it has "for Sophie Lancaster" as a dedication on page four of the book. Chapter details Lancaster's murder and Robert Maltby's assault and synopsises Judge's summing up when sentencing as well as known facts of case (e.g one gang member laughing with his mother in a police interview). It goes on to provide evidence that police in the UK spend a lot of time focussing on understanding criminals but are not exposed to victims during their probationary period (first 2 years). Author presents evidence that this is the reason that criminals like the ones that murdered Sophie are allowed to flourish as there is too much focus on care for criminals at the expense of victims. --189.158.80.220 (talk) 21:23, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So what? As per Grim23 five months ago, it's a selfpublished book by non-notable author, so pretty much falls at the first hurdle of what constitutes a valid source. It's just one man's partisan opinion about his own short-lived part-time police career. Nick Cooper (talk) 22:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, little Nick. Funny you should crop up here after we locked horns on the Police Use of Firearms...page. You clearly are biased against cops to start with judging by that page's edits and are unsuitable to pass impartial judgment on whether this book is suitable. As evidence: the author was not a "short lived, part time" officer but was also employed full time. If you don't know what you're talking about then leave well alone. Finally, I would like to request 3rd party intervention on this as this twerp is getting right up my nose. Book is relevant for "media reaction" section as it is a piece of published media that has outsold Ali Dizaei and Ian Blair (former Met Commander and Commissioner)'s biographies on Amazon. Self publishing is NOT the same as Vanity publishing. Matador (who I believe published the book) are an offshoot of Troubador and they vet ALL potential manuscripts. Published work receives the same service as a regular published book (review copies, bookshops stocking it, inclusion on Amazon, adverts etc) but the author pays for this. Matador are as respected as any other publisher and are the ONLY self publisher reccomended in the Writers and Artists Yearbook (who loudly proclaim their hatred of vanity publishers). I am again confused as to why the author writing and publishing this book AND dedicating it to Sophie AND writing a whole chapter about the attack...is irrelevant.

If Nick deletes again I will simply put it back. However I will respect a 3rd party decision from someone other than this moron. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cziltang mexico (talk • contribs) 21:43, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Third opinion response Self-published books are rarely notable, and even more rarely acceptable as reliable sources. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 22:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I will now no longer post this. Nick still needs to grow up.--189.248.87.125 (talk) 01:23, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not make personal attacks on fellow editors. Remember, civility is a core policy of Wikipedia. Grim²³ ★ 13:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I edit a wide range of pages, and first worked on this one in June 2008, which considerably pre-dates not only the attempts to add the self-published book in question to it, but also all of your contributions to Wikipedia (I'm also not sure what sort of "moron" wouldn't have been able to work that out themselves). I would probably have more grounds to suggest that you "followed" me here, but I'm not that conceited. Nick Cooper (talk) 14:29, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nick left the following comment about me on Police use of Firearms in the Uk page. "Reverted biased removal of correctly sourced material. Also, "attempted terrorism" is appalling English. You should have paid more attention in class.)" Unless this is edited I'm not changing comment.--Cziltang mexico (talk) 21:37, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That nerve still raw, is it? Nick Cooper (talk) 21:44, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This page is for discussing improvements to the article Murder of Sophie Lancaster. If any of you have problems with other editors, take it to the individual's talk page and/or address the concern through procedures outlined at Wikipedia:Civil#Dealing_with_incivility or Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, as appropriate. In any case, knock off the personal attacks. - SummerPhD (talk) 00:00, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Killers posting on Facebook, from prison!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049042/Sophie-Lancaster-killer-Ryan-Herbert-posts-Facebook-photos-cushy-prison-life.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clarksmom (talk • contribs) 07:22, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They were...

...Nu Metallers, not Goths. They listened to Metal, not Goth. A "mosher" is a Metalhead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.17.172 (talk) 16:15, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The sources cited say "goth", so we say "goth". - SummerPhD (talk) 17:04, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The sources also generally say "Mosher". And a "Mosher" is not a Goth. A Mosher is a Headbanger, a Metalhead in a moshpit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.0.46 (talk) 03:14, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The sources say "mosher" and "goth", so we say "mosher" and "goth". If the terminology is incorrect in some way, you'll need to take it up with the sources. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:35, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Their attackers mistook them for metal kids ("moshers") but they were Goth. Even their parents called them goths. 2601:18C:4300:2950:45B:53E1:822B:7773 (talk) 20:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Murder of Sophie Lancaster. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110611155955/http://www.legacy.com/therossendalefreepress/DeathNotices.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonID=93459606 to http://www.legacy.com/therossendalefreepress/DeathNotices.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonID=93459606

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 08:36, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 4 external links on Murder of Sophie Lancaster. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 05:49, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Sophie Lancaster Foundation

Hi everyone. I'm thinking of making a Wikipedia page for The Sophie Lancaster Foundation. However, I'm not sure if there is enough information from third-party sources about the charity to make a page substantial enough for Wikipedia's standards. Therefore I was hoping to leave this here and ask people to please leave any links here with good information about the charity e.g. anything regarding: its history, activities, campaigns etc that are from third party sources (basically just not the charity's own website). These should come from reputable sources, such as news organisations (local or national), other charities, campaign groups etc. Information from its own website will be used if the page is created, its just when it comes to references on Wikipedia, third-party sources are preferable. Thank you for your time and thanks in advance to anyone that decides to help, even if you look and can't find anything, thank you for trying. Helper201 (talk) 06:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]