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Talk:Mulai Ahmed er Raisuni

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NAME

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Sufferin suckatash His last name is Raisuni, Not Raisuli. In the wind and the lion film they did a mistake with his name.

I bet every Moroccan knows Raisuni. & The Raisuni family name is well known too... I used to live in a building called "Nihad Raisuni". I've also got a friend who's last name is Raisuni. History books etc...

Furthermore, check this link http://www.warflag.com/shadow/windlion/windlion1.htm Scroll down the page and you'll see his picture & corrected name. Sabertooth 23:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the information. I think that the article might need to be polished, but I appreciate learning more about him. Extraordinary_Man 11:44, 9 April 2007

I'm not happy about the "also known as"... It ain't his nickname. This article should be renamed to Raisuni, then we can add "mistakenly known as Raisuli" or whatever. Sabertooth 14:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[1] This guy is one of his descendants. He's the father of the friend I mentioned. He's a historian and retired Islamic education teacher.

[2] If you can read French, you'll find some info about him. Sabertooth 14:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Raisuli/Raisuni

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(Copied to here from Sabertooth's talk-page, for wider partaking -- LW)

What you, yourself know, or believe you know, is not an acceptable source on which to edit Wikipedia. You might be right, but you need to find a reliable source that says "Raisuni" (as against "Raisuli") is the correct form, so that the information can be verified by anyone else. That "Raisuni" is given preference in the online Britannica [3] is suggestive, but the point is not actually addressed in the article there, and "Raisuli" is given as an alternate. At the same time, Google-hits show better than a 10-to-1 preference for "Raisuli", showing that that form is overwhelmingly the better known one, even if it is not strictly correct.
As an aside, I also note that Britannica uses "al-Raisu_i". I don't know where this "er Raisu_i" comes from, but it's the first I've ever seen of it, and I must wonder whether it is a mistake -- perhaps even a simple typo by the originator of the article, who might have meant "el".
Anyhow, you must find a source saying that "Raisuli" is wrong and "Raisuni" is right. And again, take care not to break the 3RR -- and avoid edit-warring in general (of which I confess my own guilt in this case, too). -- Lonewolf BC 01:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the Britannica article [4] . Obviously, the reason they put (Raisuli) is because that's what foreigners thought his name was.
Also read this [5]. Search in the text for Raisuli and Raisuni. That may be a reliable source... or may not... define me a reliable source in the internet or other than that, then I'll try to find it. Sabertooth 01:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[6] So I guess they almost always put the alternative name because of Roosevelt's 'Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead!' and the film about the bandit.
[7] Here it mentions [Raisuni may be better known to. Anglophone readers as Raisuli (ed.).]
These are all hints that his name is mistakenly known as Raisuli in America by the causes mentioned above.
Some Spanish sources cite this Known by English as Raisuli but his name is registered as Raisuni << I lost the site, so don't ask. Sabertooth 01:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Right, what you have so far are hints that "Raisuli" is not strictly correct, from the fact that "Raisuni' is preferred in the online Britannica, and is used exclusively in the naval academy thesis, etc. What's really needed is some reliable source directly addressing which is the right form. Then the question would become which form should be given priority in Wikipedia (WP), "Raisuli" as the far better known form, or "Raisuni" as the technically correct, native-tongue form (assuming that it is, which I am inclined to believe, by the way). I'm not sure, off hand, how WP normally handles such cases. I do know that many proper names have, by historical accident, gotten English forms that are not strictly correct, and are in WP and most encyclopedias under the familiar but "wrong" form: for example, "Ottoman" as against the technically correct "Osmanli". "Raisuli" perhaps should win out in the article-title, on that basis, with the correct from being noted somewhere in the body of the article.
As far as I can make out, "er" (in "er Raisu_i) is just a mistake, perhaps originating here]. I feel sure that "er" is just a mistake for "el". Can we at least agree to use, for the title, "el-Raisu_i", or "al-Raisu_i"? -- Lonewolf BC 02:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, my final real-life-source is there's no Raisuli family name in Morocco. There's only Raisuni. About the article, let it like it is now, by the correct family name, and put (Known as Raisuli for anglophones) Sabertooth 01:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but that is original research and not verifiable by other editors, so editing on that basis is disallowed. (It also does not necessarily follow that "Raisuli" is wrong.)
-- Lonewolf BC 02:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

About "er", I'll explain it to you. "Al" has almost the same meaning as "The" in English. Some words in Arabic don't pronounce the last "L" in "AL", instead, it doubles the first letter in the certain word. For example: Al-shamso (The sun) is pronounced Ash-shamso. So for Raisuni, is pronounced Ar-Raisuni, even if it's written Al-Raisuni in Arabic. & why it's "er" not "ar", it's because that's how it's pronounced in Moroccan Arabic. Most like with the Abd el-Krim article, they pronounce his name as Krim and not Karim. I hope that clears things up. -- Sabertooth 11:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting about "er". The article ought use the proper written form, though. -- Lonewolf BC 16:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By WP:COMMONNAME, the title of the article ought be simply "Raisuli". It could then open with his right name (whatever that is, but I surmise that it uses "Raisuni", as you say ), and have something like "best known as the Raisuli, among English-speakers", near the beginning. -- Lonewolf BC 16:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in Michael B. Oren's "Power, Faith, Fantasy: America in the Middle East", he gives Raisuli's full surname as al-Raisul al-Ilah, the Messenger of God, and Raisuli was sort of a contraction/simplificaton of that. That would make more sense to me, but it's possible that Raisuni is simply a variant spelling. Extraordinary Man —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.49.7.55 (talk) 17:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sherif and Berber?

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How can he be a sherif and a berber at the same time? Sherifs should be Arabs. Berbers are like a whole different people. Sabertooth 01:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A sherif is just a descendant of the prophet Mohammed. I don't know if it's stipulated that one has to be an Arab to be a Sherif.

Can a pig be the son of a hawk? 70.183.80.165 (talk) 01:14, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Well, Mohammed was an Arab, so his descendants must be Arabs. Raisuni probably lived with Berbers, but still his ethnicity is must be Arabic (Arab ain't an ethnic group, but you get the picture). Sabertooth 00:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ransom

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Who paid the ransom to him...US or Morocco? AThousandYoung (talk) 09:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK, it was the US though I don't have a ref handy. -- Fayssal-F - Wiki me up® 15:51, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Morocco paid the ransom under British and French "persuasion." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.49.162.122 (talk) 02:01, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

jebala is a region not a tribe

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jebala is a region not a tribe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.214.193.81 (talk) 21:39, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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