Talk:Muhammad in Mecca/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

This is just a start, everything needs to be fleshed out with short overviews. --Striver 02:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

rv

A user is removing sections, i reverted it. --Striver 04:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment

Juat a quick heads up, ref 2 isn't displaying properly. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks --Be happy!! (talk) 07:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite

This article was rewritten [1]. The re-write expanded it from 4k to 34k. Before it looked like a stub, but now it is probably GA class.

It was gradually compiled over 3 months. Special thanks to Aminz for his contributions.Bless sins (talk) 04:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Special thanks to you Bless sins. You did most of the job. I'll try to add more stuff to the article. Cheers, --Be happy!! (talk) 07:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

GA review

There are some problems which I'll mention later,God willing.--Seyyed(t-c) 08:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Sources for Muhammad's life in Mecca: Next in importance are the historical works by writers of third and fourth century of the Muslim era.

   The second sentence of the first paragraph misleads the reader that there was nothing during this period while the monographs and Hadith compilation were written in 2nd and 3rd Islamic centuries and later historians used these sources to write their historical works. Also it should be mentioned that later western historians such as Madelung use Hadith compilation as their source. I suggest to read Ali#Historiography of Ali's life to solve the problem.--Seyyed(t-c)

   Re: "The second sentence of the first paragraph misleads..." We have not said that there was no writing before 3rd century, only that none of those writings are available to us. Our available sources come from 3rd century onwards. Of course the authors have used the (oral or written) works of their predecessors. --Be happy!! (talk) 00:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

   I know one of the main sources are historical compilation, but I think it's clear not enough for those who are not familiar with the historiography among Muslims. --Seyyed(t-c) 02:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

   - mentioned that they are surviving works--Be happy!! (talk) 02:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

   If you let me, I'll add some important points.--Seyyed(t-c) 08:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

   I hope my edition satisfies you.--Seyyed(t-c) 11:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

2. I have heared a historian criticized the idea that Because he was fatherless, wetnurses refused to take him due to the fact that his grandfather who was his guardian was the chief of Banu Hashim, the most prominent tribe of Arabia. It's written in Britannica that Aminah chose Halima. "Aminah chose a poor woman named Halimah from the tribe of Banu Sa'd, a branch of the Hawazin, to suckle and nurture her son."--Seyyed(t-c)

   Do you know who that historian was? --Be happy!! (talk) 03:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

   Britannic Is suffiecent in this case.--Seyyed(t-c) 08:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

3. Prophet Mohammad and His Miracles:I think we should add what Muslim believe as religious signs which coincided with the birth of the Prohet here. We can write According to some Muslim belief ... --Seyyed(t-c)

 Done - a sentence was added to the effect that Muslim tradition reports miracles in connection with his birth. --Be happy!! (talk) 03:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Please clarify the issue. Which miracles?--Seyyed(t-c) 12:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Please make a complete list of References on the basis of all of the books which have used.--Seyyed(t-c)
2. A mistake:According to the tradition, when Muhammad was either nine or twelve years old, he met Bahira in the town of Bosra in Syria during his travel with a Meccan caravan, accompanying either Abu Bakr or Ali

   But Ali is thirty old younger than the Prophet and Abu Bakr is 2 or 3 years younger. I think the guy is Abu Talib who was the guardian of the Prophet. It's written in Britannica Islamic sources indicate that others recognized the mole as the sign of prophethood, including the Christian monk Bahira, who met Muhammad when the Prophet joined Abu Talib on a caravan trip to Syria.--Seyyed(t-c)

   This is a Persian encyclopedic article about the issue.[2] and [3]--Seyyed(t-c)

    Done--Be happy!! (talk) 02:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

3. POV:It's completely represent western rational i.e. historical critique and in contrast with POV policy. I remembered Henry Corbin's concerns when he says

   "Typical of this perspective is the attempt to understand the prophet true his circumstances, education and type of genius...

   He clarifies how deeply this interpretation is in contrast whit what a Muslim and especially a Sufi philosopher understands. You see, when the article goes further than narration of the events and tries to analyze or judge the events, it becomes problematic. --Seyyed(t-c)

   Re:"It's completely represent western rational..." That is correct. I don't think those views should be removed but rather completed with other material. I'll add something along that lines soon. --Be happy!! (talk) 00:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

    Done- The "background" section was re-written. --Be happy!! (talk) 02:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

4. The number of the Prophet's daughter: We have discussed and achieved consensus in Fatimah Zahra article about the issue. Please copy that part.--Seyyed(t-c)

    Done - copied --Be happy!! (talk) 03:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

5. It should be mention that when all of the Prophet's sons died his opponent called him Abtar due to the importance of son in Arabian culture. In contrast in Islamic culture the children of the daughter are also consider as descendants.--Seyyed(t-c)
6. POV:Upon receiving his first revelations he was deeply distressed. When he returned home he related the event to his wife Khadijah, and told her that he contemplated throwing himself off the top of a mountain.[49] He was consoled and reassured by Khadija and her Christian cousin, Waraqah ibn Nawfal. Waraqah was immediately enthusiastic, but Khadija proceeded more cautiously, and was only satisfied that the revelations had indeed come from a good source after the conclusion of a test she had devised to determine that very thing.

   This part contradicts with Shia Hadiths and theology. --Seyyed(t-c)

   The sources are somewhat reliable (even if they're not) I don't see the point of taking them out. In anycase, I've attribute the events to the sources [4], so they're not presented as facts.

   Bless sins (talk) 18:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

   I began a discussion about the issue here.--Seyyed(t-c) 13:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

    Done Thanks for Aminz.--Seyyed(t-c) 04:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

7. "Later Muhammad organized dinners in which he conveyed the substance of his message. At these events, Muhammad met fierce opposition from his own uncle Abu Lahab, though his uncles Hamza and Abbas accepted him."

   This part is incomplete. Hamza and Abbas accepted Islam later. The only Hashimite who accepted Islam at that time was Ali. You can use these sources to improve it:(Peterson, pp. 67 and 68, The New Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 39, Shah-Kazemi, pp. 14 and 15, Zafrulla Khan, pp. 30 and 31)--Seyyed(t-c)

8. Can you explain this for me:"The Quraysh also refused to accept Muhammad as a prophet since he didn't come from a powerful clan"

   Wasn't Banu Hashim one of the most prominent clans of Arabia.--Seyyed(t-c)

   Banu Hashim's fortunes had declined at the time of the birth of the Prophet.

    Done See this edit.Bless sins (talk) 18:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

9. Conversion of Umar :It's written The effect of Umar's conversion was that Muslims could now pray openly at the Ka'ba, as the pagans were reluctant to confront Umar, known for his forceful character.

   As I remember the movie (Mohammad, Messenger of God) has attributed this issue to the conversion of Hamza. I guess there should be more than one reason, for example increasing the number of noble Muslims. --Seyyed(t-c)

10. Boycott:It should be expanded.--Seyyed(t-c)

     Done- Expanded. --Be happy!! (talk) 21:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

11. Miracles of MuhammadThis issue and especially splitting the Moon should be mentioned.--Seyyed(t-c)
12. Isra and Mi'raj: I think in this case historians aren't authoritative enough. We should refer to Qur'an and Hadith at least. It's good to write Muslim theologians and exegeses.--Seyyed(t-c)
13. Pledges at Aqabah:It should be expanded.--Seyyed(t-c)
14. Failed assassination:Is it relevant to add the following sentence at the end of the paragraph:This night is called "Laylat Al-mabit". According to some hadith a verse was revealed about Ali concerning his sacrifice on the night of Hijra which says "And among men is he who sells his NAFS (self) in exchange for the pleasure of Allah"

1. What's your idea about the story of migration and what happened in this period. Is it relevant to this article?--Seyyed(t-c)

Most of the above points deal with the fact that this article is missing much information. This is correct. However, this article need not include all knowledge for a GA nomination. Certainly that'd be a criteria for FA, which we are not discussing at this point. If we look at the size of this article we see that it is 50k. Size of other good articles of this sort are often much smaller: Islamic view of Ezra (19k), Jesus in Islam (26k), Ishmael (19k) and Isaac (26k). I think the current amount of information is appropriate for GA status. Additional information (as stated above) is definitely required for FA status.Bless sins (talk) 06:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I think we shouldn't compare this article with the pre-historic prophets which we don't have enough information about them. I know this is just GAR and FAR but some of the problems are serious while some others can be neglected.--Seyyed(t-c) 12:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Failed

Although the article has improved during last week but it hasn't reached GA criteria. I want to declare failing if you agree.--Seyyed(t-c) 05:20, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

5. It is stable.

   

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

   a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

7. Overall:

   a Pass/Fail:

References