Talk:Muhammad Ali of Egypt/Archive 1

Archive 1

Name of article

This article needs better disambiguation from Muhammad Ali than using an archaic spelling. How about Muhammad Ali, pasha of Egypt like in [1] ? ( 20:29, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

This article could really use some work. It certainly needs details; other than the years he lived not a single date or year is given at all. If I knew more of the details of his life I'd fix the article myself, but it's been a while since I read anything about him. Anyone care to help? -R. fiend 21:27, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There was some silliness from 216.20.3.18 that has been removed. I left the one sentence that seemed to be useful: "Egypt became a powerful modernized, Industrial force in the Middle East."

I've been editing the existing entry, and re-writing for greater detail and clarity. More to come when there is time. --Dgilman 03:48, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I guess it would help if the name of the article was "Mohammed Ali" as it is a more common spelling of the name "Mohammed" I had to search for it in Arabic at the Arabic Wiki in order to locate this English version of the article.

Muhammad Ali's Ancestors

It cannot be substantiated that Muhammad Ali's family originally came from Malayta. According to Prince Hassan Aziz Hassan in his book, In the House of Muhammad Ali, he mentions that he had never heard before that his ancestors were Kurdish and that he always knew them to be Albanian. So, for purposes in keeping the article to just what is known, some of the information should be removed or moved to a different section under the ethnicty section. User:Imperial78:Imperial78

I am removing the uncited claim that he is best considered an Albanian. The whole section on his ethnicity ought to make clear that claiming for him a modern ethnic nationality is an untenable enterprise. --Dgilman 06:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Most sources say he was Albanian and the descendants of Muhammad Ali themselves consider themselves Albanian. Here are some examples. Most of of Muhammad Ali's soldiers were Albanian. Albanians still live in Egypt today. King Fuad I of Egypt had originally wanted to be King of Albania (Egypt was a consolation prize!). King Farouk considered himself Albanian by ethnicity in many quotes. Prince Hassan Hassan's book mentions their Albanian origins. If everyone thinks they were Albanian, maybe because they were. Even in Sadat's widow's autobiography, she mentions how she never cared for their Albanian king or something to that effect. So, since wikipedia is about listing what is most commonly accepted, it should be put that Muhammad Ali was of mostly Albanian extraction, because that is where most of the evidence is. Yes he could Albanian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Kurdish, Turkish, Greek, Circassian, Vlakh, Rom, Italian, Icelander, Goth, French, Vandal, Armenian, etc, etc, etc, but from what substantiated evidence we have, he was most likely Albanian. User:Imperial78:Imperial78

A funny story about King Farouk is when he visited Greece after he was overthrown. He went to restaurant and the Greek owner told him that he did not allow Turks or Arabs in his restaurant and Farouk said, "Hey, I am not an Arab or a Turk. I am an Albanian!" and he was let into the restaurant. User:Imperial78:Imperial78

The point about commonly accepted information seems fair, I grant you. What concerns me is the uncritical acceptance of an ethnic nationality that did not necessarily exist during Muhammad Ali's lifetime. While I am sure that his descendants consider themselves Albanian, I am less convinced that he would have seen himself this way as a primary identifier. Yes, he was of Albanian stock, and spoke Albanian, but it seems more to the point in the context of ruling Egypt that he was an Ottoman whose administration functioned primarily in the Ottoman Turkish language. (I should point out that I'm no Turkish nationalist, either.) Even if we now perceive Albanian ethnicity as a prime identifier, it was not necessarily the case in the Ottoman Empire, as User:Imperial78 observes. The re-write of the section is a good one, but it would be nice to have language in there that makes it clear that trying to say "He was really a Turk" or "He was really an Albanian" is not good historiography. --Dgilman 00:03, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I see your point. It is just interesting to list someone's exact ethnicity to be as 100% accurate as one can be. Although one's religious affiliation was the primary divider in Ottoman times (probably to keep it simple since the Ottoman Empire had scores of ethnic groups), one's language was also still a factor. It is interesting to note that Christian and Muslim Albanians each had their own ensign flags. What's get more confusing is that by the time one gets to Farouk he has Albanian, Turkish, Circassian, and any number of other ethnicities in his background due to the fact that many of the Egyptian rulers of this dynasty married some Ottoman princesses. I have found an occasional source that Muhammad Ali's family originally was Kurdish, but in Prince Hassan Hassan's book he found it suspect since he never heard it before and didn't believe it himself (He was an expert on his family). Perhaps a connection to Saladin was the goal. I guess everyone wants to claim him. lol User:Imperial78:Imperial78

What is all this about Muhammad Ali being Albanian? Regardless of what his ethnic origin was, he spoke Turkish (Ottoman Turkish, quite different from modern Turkish), not Albanian, as did his dynasty throughout its existence. The military unit he commanded was composed mostly of Albanians; that is likely from where the misunderstanding comes. If any of the Khedival dynasty claimed to be Albanian it was because they were interested in the Albanian throne. You will not find any Middle Eastern sources that claim M.A. was Albanian, only Western, as in 19thc historiography nobody wanted to believe that a Turk could actually accomplish anything. In any case, this is largely irrelevant since Ottomans were more often than not of mixed heritage and M.A would have had nothing resembling a modern concept of ethnicity. If you find this important, than you need a source to back up the claim that he was Albanian, not rumor or anecdotes like the story about a Greek cafe.

I deleted the following section, which is patently untrue: "What is known is that he had Albanian origins from what can be gathered historically. He himself proclaimed to be an Albanian, he spoke Albanian and his soldiers and settlers were mostly Albanian. The descendants of Muhammad Ali have always considered themselves Albanians." and corrected the grammar of the previous sentence. - John

I am reverting it and we can discuss further changes because what was there is not written well (the last edit anyway). User:Imperial78:Imperial78

I have performed yet another edit on this section. I have patiently waited for months to hear what a verifiable historical source would be for the claim of Albanian nationality, and I remain empty-handed. The whole point of the section is to explain how nationalists of various groups attempt to hang labels on Muhammad Ali that he didn't use, and the repetitive references to Albanian ancestry effectively subvert this point. Then, too, there is the complete lack of substantiating information for this claim. I expect other Wikipedia editors to demonstrate a basic knowledge of and respect for the medium by providing documentation of historical claims, particularly ones under heavy debate. Until such documentation surfaces, I will make sure that the record stays straight that Muhammad Ali's ethnicity is of much greater interest to nationalists than to more impartial scholars. --Dgilman 22:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Kurdish origins!!! What a nonsens!!! Are you OK??????!!!!--Babaeski

I have specialized on Egypt and the adjacent countries for more than half a century, although I am only a generalist on Muhammad Ali himself. He did come to Egypt as commander of an Ottoman Albanian brigade, but recent serious scholars think it likely that he was of Turkish rather than Albanian origin. In a way, this is making much ado about nothing, as ethnicity was not treated so seriously in those days. The Ottoman State was a Sunni Islamic one, and although the dynasty was Turkish (though patrilineally only), it belonged to all of its peoples. The ruling classes in particular were insulted when Westerners called them "Turks." Turkish nationalism had hardly started then. But whatever Muhammad Ali's ethnicity may have been, I am bothered by the dogmatic way in which he is called an Albanian, with no mention of any other views. And the sources that are cited for his Albanian origins are not impressive at all. I'll get back, though, after checking some of the standard works. I have personal copies of many of them, but I may have to go to the library for others. I hope this page is not "owned" by someone who will simply strike out more solid material.Eleanor1944 (talk) 22:18, 18 December 2011 (UTC) I do not understand one thing. Why most of talkers apparently are so irritated by the mention of the his country's origin name? Wrong to be an Albanian? The best way to get his history is not to try to think of making it up. He is an Albanian based on evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.88.58 (talk) 05:10, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Turkish Historical Review - reverts August 2014

I think that the turkish ancestor reference should be deleted, cause there aren't enough references. Plus the only reference is unreliable, cause it is a modern article. Historians say that he was albanian even his ancestors say so.there are no soures about his turkish origin.Plus in Egypt and Turkey he is said to be from Albania.He only speaked Albanian.An modern article can't stand against older historical books. Even in the article he wasn't mantioned as turk. 79.106.109.163 (talk) 4:10, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

You have given multiple different reasons at different times for this revert, and these are now collected in your post. As well as the various reasons in your above post you have also said that the source doesn't exist, which it obviously does. In answer to the points in your post:

• "Even in the article he wasn't mantioned as turk". On page 5 of the article, the author states:

  "Mehmed Ali descended from a family, most probably of Turkish origin, that had emigrated from south-east Anatolia and settled in Kavala in southern Macedonia some time earlier."

Although the wording can be improved, that clearly supports the article text which you have taken out: "Lately however, it has also started to be thought possible that his ancestors were Turkish, and actually migrated from South-East Anatolia."

• I see no reason to doubt this is a reliable source. It is written by Prof. Butrus Abu-Manneh (who by the way, as far as I can see is not Turkish), a historian of the Middle East and particularly of the Ottoman Empire at the University of Haifa.[2] Also, as far as I can see the Turkish Historical Review is a peer-reviewed academic journal. Although I'm not familiar with it, I see no reason to doubt its credentials - it's published by Brill a well-known respected international academic publisher. The editor of the journal is Dr. Kate Fleet an historian at the University of Cambridge who specialises in Ottoman history.
• "An modern article can't stand against older historical books". Why is it "unreliable" because it is a modern article? In fact, the opposite is usually the case. That's the point of academic research - to advance knowledge and to test whether what has been previously said is correct. In fact, the older the history the less reliable it is. For example, histories from the 19th century may often repeat "folklore" because academic methodology was less rigorous then or because it was seen as a way of advancing nationalist points of view. I note that there is reliance on 19th century publications in the citations in the article for Muhammad Ali being "Albanian".
• "there aren't enough references". Firstly, one reliable source is enough. it is only reported as an alternative view not the sole view. Secondly, the sources supporting the "Albanian" origin view are poor quality, and none are histories relevant to the topic. They are:

  - An 1858 Travelogue

  - A 1942 history of naval warfare tactics

  - An 1884 Memoir

  - An 1857 Travel Magazine

  - A 1991 biography of King Farouk written by a Hollywood screenwriter who specialises in celebrity biographies.

These sources are frankly garbage and I'm very tempted to delete the reference to Albanian if that's all there is. The serious academic article in the Turkish Historical Review is certainly of far higher quality than those.

• "Plus in Egypt and Turkey he is said to be from Albania". It is irrelevant what people in Egypt, Turkey or Abania think "they know". We only go by what reliable sources say. And, until you deleted it, the only reliable source in the article on the subject of his family's ethnic origins is the Turkish Historical Review article.

Turning to your recent editing behaviour, you run the risk of being blocked on two grounds:

• You have edited both as Biar122 and from an Albanian IP address, 79.106.109.163. This is not permitted, see WP:SOCK.
• Edit-warring: please read WP:BRD. If you make a change and you are reverted (as you have been by three other editors, you must leave the article 'as it was before your edit and try to persuade others to your point of view on the article talk page.

DeCausa (talk) 09:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

It is obvious that the THR source passes WP:RS easily and no case has been made for deleting it. The older-is-better argument is nonsense. Actually in serious historical writing usually newer sources are better because they take into account the contents of older sources. Zero^talk 09:57, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

The references that are used in this article to proof Albanian ancestry are worthless: they are either very old and/or not academic researches. According to my knowledge there exist three major biographies about Muhammad Alis life and none of them is considered in this article:

• al-Sayyid Marsot: Egypt in the reign of Muhammad Ali, Cambridge 1984.
• Henry Dodwell: The Founder of Modern Egypt: A Study of Muhammad 'Ali, Cambridge 1967.
• Khaled Fahmy: From Ottoman Governor to Ruler of Egypt., Oxford 2008.

There you can read that there is no proof for Albanian ancestry. All 3 authors assume that Muhammad Alis ancestors came from Anatolia and were of Kurdish or of Turkish origin.

al-Sayyid Marsot: Egypt in the reign of Muhammad Ali, Cambridge 1984, p. 25:

He was the son of Ibrahim Agha, the son of Uthman Agha, the son of Ibrahim Agha [...]. Beyond that, little is known about the family, or their origin. While historians have described them as being of Albanian origin, a family tradition believes that they might have been of Kurdish stock, and come from a village, Ilic, in eastern Anatolia where they were horse traders. At one time the family had moved from some unknown original village to Umar Bekir and from there Uthman Agha and his father Ibrahim had moved, first to Konia and then to Kavala.

Henry Dodwell: The Founder of Modern Egypt: A Study of Muhammad 'Ali, Cambridge 1967 (Reprint von 1931), p. 9.:

Of the origins of his family nothing is positively known. Turkish and even Persian ancestry is claimed for him.

Khaled Fahmy: Mehmed Ali: From Ottoman Governor to Ruler of Egypt., Oxford 2008, p. 4, verifies al-Sayyid Marsots position and according to him the theory of Albanian ancestry is wrong. Page 6:

Mehmed Ali's close association with the Albanians gave rise to the erroneous idea [sic!] he was an ethnic Albanian.

Indeed the descendants of Muhammad Ali still claim to be of Albanian origin, but that is not a proof. --Arturius001 (talk) 11:25, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Umm, where did the references to the Turkish Historical Review go? The Talk discussion above has been an absolutely riveting read. Far more interesting that the article itself. But accepting the arguments above that the THD represents a perfectly valid reference, what valid reason is there for its removal? TandemTriumphans (talk) 11:01, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Mehmet Ali Pasa was TURKISH. The Three Centuries: FamilyChronicles of TurkeyandEgypt’

<== Bu Haberi, Doğu Gazetesi'nin internet sitesinden Yürüttük ==> http://www.dogugazetesi.com/kavalali-mehmed-ali-pasa-erzincanli-mi-2-makale,1060.html

states that his family migrated from erzincan to konya and then kavala.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cembek1907 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 25 June 2020 (UTC) 

New Muhammad Ali Dynasty Page Needed

I believe a page on the Dynasty of Muhammad Ali is needed. There can be more information on the ethnic makeup, list of rulers, etc. User:Imperial78:Imperial78

I'am a Turkish doctor whose family was born in the same city of Kavala, where Mohammad Ali was born. My grandmother was born in Drama; which includes atown called "Nusretli". Nusretli is the town where Mohammad Ali's first wife was born. In these cities, there were almost no albanians living during the Ottoman period. Almost all moslems living in these towns were Turkish in origin. Nusretli (a Turkish word) was a town composed of completely Turkish people (even no christians were living here). According to Ottoman sources, Mohammad Ali's ancestors migrated fom Konya to Edirne and finally to Kavala. Konya and Edirne are in Anatolia where no Albanians lived during the Ottoman period. According to many European sources, mainly European experts living with him, he always spoke Turkish. The names given to his children by Mohammad Ali were also in Turkish (they were not Arabic names): Tousoun (means "young bull" in Turkish) was the name of his son and Nazlı (means "delicate" in Turkish) was the name of her daughter. These names were never used by albanian people. Since he was an officer in an albanian brigade in the Ottoman army, it was misunderstood by many historians as he was Albanian origin. Princes Nabile Halim , one of his descendants who lived and died in İstanbul - Turkey, also wrote in her book that all of her family members and relatives spoke Turkish (not albanian or Arabic) at their homes until late 1950's.

I theink this error that he is Albanian in origin should be corrected in wikipedi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.174.232.26 (talk) 11:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Rebellion against the Sultan

I've never seen anyone before claim that the official pretext for the 1831 invasion was protecting the Sublime Porte from Russia. Is there a source to back this up? I suppose stranger things have been said in the course of politics, but it seems more reasonable to think that Muhammad Ali started out by framing the invasion as a parochial quarrel between the pashaliks of Syria and Egypt. Plus, Khaled Fahmy documents the pretext of conscript repatriation very well. (See the citation for Fahmy 1997.) Besides, how would the wali have claimed to be protecting the Sultan when he spent half a year besieging Acre? I'm interested to hear more. --Dgilman 04:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Albanian origins

There will always be debate on his precise ethnic origins, most sources state is was of Albanian origins. The World Book Encyclopedia says Albanian. Biographies on various members of the Egyptian Royal family list Albanian. Also Prince Hassan Hassan's autobiography mentions Albanian. These are all newer sources. Azalea pomp 06:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Stop Reverting

Those sources are mostly from the 1800s and my sources are more relevant as they are about members of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty also other encyclopedic articles located in World Book Encyclopedia list Albanian, not Greek Muslim. Azalea pomp 17:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The references I initially provided coincide with the fact that he was of Greek descent, there are sources which contradict with this and say Albanian origins, in order to compy witht the WP:NPOV policy all relevant sides of a debate when referenced must be represented, including the mutual perspectives. If you read Wikipedia:No original research you will find that Wikipedia policy requires that you unconditionally accept what it verified in reliable sources providing that it is relevant. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether we think it is true. Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments. Wheather you acknowledge it or not, the references you removed comply with WP:RS and removing reliably sourced material is considered vandalism in wikipedia.

I have edited the article in a NPOV way that expresses both theories of Muhammad Ali’s ethnic background with citations included.. Dushkagjin 19:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I have included new sources which directly address either Muhammad Ali or his dynasty. You have included old sources which are not academic. Also, I have mentioned that other encyclopedias list his ethnicity as Albanian. You are violating policies as my sources are more reliable references. Your sources are not directly about the Muhammad Ali dynasty so therefore they are not primary sources. Azalea pomp 19:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

If was for the Greeks even Clinton is Greek ;)

I don't like to sterotype nor hate people from other countries. What I have seen in Wikipedia is that most of the Greeks want to Hellenize all the famous people.When it comes to Muhammad Ali of Egypt there is more than enough sources to say that his parents wore Albanian so was he, I read that he spoke Albanian too but din't know how to writte. BUT he fought, loved, dedicated all his life to Egypt so this is not an article for my Albania nor for Greece. Best of luck to all.

p.s. Don't forget people that he spoke Albanian,he lead an Albanian contingent sent against Bonaparte in Egypt 1799,landed at Aboukir(14th July 1799).Depending at first on his Albanian force and other heterogeneous troops, his army invaded the Sudan --Taulant23 22:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Did he know Arabic

"Though Muhammad Ali never learned Arabic,....." -- "The Rage of Nations: The World of the Twentieth Century", by Edward R. Kantowicz, p197. Kansas Bear (talk) 06:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Wāli = viceroy, governor, or ?

What is the best translation of wāli? The page has "governor," the dab page has "viceroy", or perhaps a third alternative? -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

'governor' is more accurate. Wāli means ruler. Here's a source: administrative officer , provincial governor , governor , chief , leader , ruler. Cheers, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 15:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

{Please see the current discussion at the Language Ref Desk, to which I've added the above response and all of which I'll paste here once the discussion has terminated.} -- Deborahjay (talk) 15:46, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Khedive

The page Khedive explains that this was a title for Muhammad Ali of Egypt, whose page doesn't include this at all! The Khedive page also goes on to include considerable content about his dynasty. Is a (partial) Merge indicated? -- Deborahjay (talk) 16:43, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The various articles on MA need a good sort out, which will probably entail mergers and spinoffs, I've started a centralised discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ottoman Empire#Ottoman Egypt needs attention, and invited discussion from WP Egypt. He was never officially a khedive, the title was first granted to his grandson, and they were not the only khedives, but are much the best known ones. Le Deluge (talk) 10:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Istanbul or Constantinople?

In the article both "Istanbul" and "Constantinople" is used to denote the same city. This usage is inconsistent and confusing. I think the only occurrence of "Istanbul" should be changed to "Constantinople", which is used in the rest of the article. Guldue (talk) 16:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Best to be consistent with the name of the city in the time being discussed, and if at the time of the name change, to use each as appropriate with explanations. Montanabw^(talk) 18:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

not a consort

The link to Nazli Sabri under Consorts goes to the bio of a woman who was born after Mehmet Ali died and she therefore cannot be his consort. The definition of consort is a spouse, as Prince Albert was Prince Consort of Queen Victoria. Please move this link under Heirs if appropriate or put it somewhere else, find the article that should be linked to under consorts, and fix the link. 4.249.96.250 (talk) 20:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Cite for "champion of the people"

I'm looking to develop List of monarchs of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty for a potential appearance on the Main Page on April Fools. I was wondering if anyone could help source the "champion of the people" line, as this would be of great help. Thanks in advance. —WFC— 18:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Turkish Ancestors

Here you can read in the Homepage of Prince Osman Rifat Ibrahim a member of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty that his Ancestors come from Turkey.

http://www.mohamedali.eu/mohamed_ali.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nalanidil (talk • contribs) 01:57, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Alleged source misinterpretation

Recently an edit i did was reverted by @Alexikoua: with the reason given: restoring removed part in light of new inlines +source misrepresentation ("ties with Chameria" can't be interpreted "in Chameria". Firstly, i am not sure what new inlines are referred to in this instance? Secondly the parts that i removed [3] was not cited at all and were additions by editor Nalanidil who kept insisting and referring to a personalised website of a distant royal family member. That aside, i said to him [4] that additions needed to be based on wp:reliable and wp:secondary (i.e scholarship). Since the reason given for reverting was inlines and source misrepresentation, this is what i wrote as a sentence that noted Chameria and Muhammad Ali's father: He was the son of a tobacco and shipping merchant who had ties to the region of Chamëria. and when compared this is what Elsie notes on page 303 [5]: Mehmed Ali Pasha, known in Turkish as Kavalali Mehmet Ali Paşa and in Arabic as Muhammad All Pasha al-Mas’ud ibn Agha, was born in Kavala in Greek Macedonia of an Albanian family. His father, a tobacco and shipping merchant with ties in Chameria, died early such that he was raised by his uncle, Hysein Aga Çorbaxhi, the Avan of https://connect.garmin.com/Kavala, and by his cousins, for whom he collected taxes.. Would you be able to elaborate where the source misrepresentation is ? Additionally, a sentence i wrote: Muhammad Ali was born in Kavala, in Macedonia, to an Albanian family. was also deleted along with its three citations which are from reputable scholars. Edmund Clingan [6] Muhammad All was born to a prominent Albanian merchant family in the same year as Napoleon.; Don Peretz [7] Born in 1769 to a middle-class Albanian family living at Kavalla in Macedonia, Muhammad Ali became a tobacco merchant.; Martin Sicker [8] Muhammad Ali an ethnic Albanian from the small seaport of Kavala in eastern Macedonia. -and there are many, many more of these. Could you elaborate as to why were these deleted as well? After this revert of my edit, IPs came in doing disruptions [9], [10], [11], [12] and later @TU-nor: had to undo part of those edits [13] and would be for an additional viewpoint on this part of the article so it can be stable going into the future.Resnjari (talk) 23:54, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

The references that are used in this article to proof Albanian ancestry are worthless: they are either very old and/or not academic researches and/or not researches concerning Muhammad Ali. According to my knowledge there exist three major biographies about Muhammad Alis life and none of them are considered:

• al-Sayyid Marsot: Egypt in the reign of Muhammad Ali, Cambridge 1984.
• Henry Dodwell: The Founder of Modern Egypt: A Study of Muhammad 'Ali, Cambridge 1967.
• Khaled Fahmy: From Ottoman Governor to Ruler of Egypt., Oxford 2008.

There you can read that there is no proof for Albanian ancestry. All 3 authors assume that Muhammad Alis ancestors came from Anatolia and were of Kurdish or of Turkish origin.

al-Sayyid Marsot: Egypt in the reign of Muhammad Ali, Cambridge 1984, p. 25:

He was the son of Ibrahim Agha, the son of Uthman Agha, the son of Ibrahim Agha [...]. Beyond that, little is known about the family, or their origin. While historians have described them as being of Albanian origin, a family tradition believes that they might have been of Kurdish stock, and come from a village, Ilic, in eastern Anatolia where they were horse traders. At one time the family had moved from some unknown original village to Umar Bekir and from there Uthman Agha and his father Ibrahim had moved, first to Konia and then to Kavala.

Henry Dodwell: The Founder of Modern Egypt: A Study of Muhammad 'Ali, Cambridge 1967, p. 9.:

Of the origins of his family nothing is positively known. Turkish and even Persian ancestry is claimed for him.

Khaled Fahmy: Mehmed Ali: From Ottoman Governor to Ruler of Egypt., Oxford 2008, p. 4, verifies al-Sayyid Marsots position and according to him the theory of Albanian ancestry is wrong. Page 6:

Few facts can be established about these early years with any degree of certainty. However, there is no doubt surrounding the identity of his father - a man called Ibrahim Aga, the son of Osman Aga, the son of Ibrahim Aga. Family tradition maintained that Ibrahim Aga was not originally from Kavala and that his paternal grandfather had hailed from Konya in central Anatolia. Before then the family traced its origins to areas further east, which gave rise to an idea that they were originally Kurds. Be that as it may, by the time they settled in Kavala in ca. 1700, they had lost whatever Kurdish identity they might have had; their language was Turkish, they professed Sunni Islam and intermingled with Rumelia's population of Muslims, Jews and Orthodox Christians who were all subjects of the Ottoman Sultan. (p. 4)

As fhttps://connect.garmin.com/or his mother, little is known about her other than her name, Zeyneb Hatun, and that she was from a small village called Nusretli in the province of Drama to the north of Kavala. (p. 4)

Mehmed Ali's close association with the Albanians gave rise to the erroneous idea he was an ethnic Albanian. (p. 6)

Indeed the descendants of Muhammad Ali still claim to be of Albanian origin, but that is not a verification. --Lucius Castus (talk) 05:44, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali's birthdate is unknown. Later he himself set his year of birth in 1869.

The exact year of the child's birth is uncertain and could have been any time between 1182 A.H. or 1184 A.H., that is, between May 1768 and April 1771. In later years when he had become famous, Muhammad Ali chose 1769 as the year of his birth. The year in which Napoleon, Wellington and Ney were born seemed an auspicious year for brilliant generals. That date, falling between 20 Shaban 1182 and the 2nd of Ramadan 1183 A.H., was not the real year of birth. [...] In 1263/1847 a gold medaillon struck to commemorate the erection of the barrages across the Nile north of Cairo stated that Muhammad Ali was born in 1184 A.H. ('bin yüz seksen dört'), which year began on 27 April 1770 and ended on 15 April 1771. To add the confusion his tombstone gives a different birth date. It states that he died on 13 Ramadan, 1265 (August 1849) at the age of 82, so that his birth date would have been 1183 (1769-70). When we put these two items of information together we conclude that he must have been born early in 1770. In the Egyptian archives a voluminous correspondence between the palace and the archivists revealed an attempt to establish the correct date of birth at the time when King Faruq was planning to commemorate the centennial of his ancestor. It seemed that even the royal family was not quite sure about the birth date since there were discrepancies between all the given dates. Finally the archivists agreed that the correct date was that of 1770 or 1184 A.H. (Afaf Lutfi al-Sayyid Marsot: Egypt in the reign of Muhammad Ali., p. 24-25)

1769 is usually thought to be the year in which Mehmed Ali was born, being the one he chose as his year of birth in the many interviews he would conduct with foreign visitors when he became the ruler of Egypt. This was perhaps to remind his eager listeners that it was also the year in which Napoleon and Wellington were born, two statesmen he admired and with whom he wanted to be associated. Nevertheless, a commemorative medal struck in 1847 at the time of the inauguration of the barrages across the Nile at the apex of the Delta states that Mehmed Ali was born in 1184 AH (or 1770-1771 CE). This, together with information inscribed on his tomb, leads us to believe that the real year of his birth was more likely to have been 1770. (Khaled Fahmy: Mehmed Ali: From Ottoman Governor to Ruler of Egypt, p. 3) --Lucius Castus (talk) 05:53, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

@Lucius Castus:, i am not against having these sources in the article (i actually find them interesting and thank you for highlighting them) and they should be accounted for. However you say that many of the sources on Muhammad being Albanian are old and that is not the case. Some of these that you yourself cite are old, while for example Elsie (the most recent detailed one) is from 2012 (and there are a few others). We should work together to make that section stable because as of now that section is only projecting the view of one source (added by the editor who reverted my edits) that also claims that "Kavalla is a port of Albania".Resnjari (talk) 20:26, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

In the case of Elsie we have a clear source misinterpretation about the "alleged" Chameria origin of Ibrahim: in general a merchant with ties with region X does not mean that he is also a native of this region.Alexikoua (talk) 15:56, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Elsie did not allege that he was a "native", all he noted was that Muhammad's father had ties to the region. Please don't infer things about scholars when they have not said it themselves.Resnjari (talk) 20:20, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I was commending on a specific editor who falsified Elsie: the part about Ibrahim being a merchant in Chameria was OR and had to be removed.Alexikoua (talk) 07:12, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

You were "commending" (which means you agree with something, in praise of something) or commenting? Just asking so it is known what is meant. This is the second time your alleging something of a person's editing and you have not elaborated why you removed all cited material of that edit.Resnjari (talk) 23:36, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

You need to be more careful in so obvious cases of source misrepresentation (the so-called Chameria origin of the father's subject). I've fully explained me edit and added additional inline reference as well, which reveals that Ibrahim lived in Kavala and not in Chameria... as you accepted.Alexikoua (talk) 19:35, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I never said his father was from Chameria, nor did Elsie and a comparison of the sentence i placed in the article compared with Elsie shows this. Elsie only said the father had ties to the area, after all he was a business man and the Ottoman Empire had economic and social networks all over the place. Ties does not mean origin.Resnjari (talk) 23:26, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

As I've said you accepted this option: during your edit-war with Nalanidil this didn't bother you though you allegedly insisted about Elsie [[14]][[15]]. For future reference Elsie doesn't claim that he is from Chameria.Alexikoua (talk) 23:53, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

The matter was corrected in this edit [16] the one which you reverted that contained the full content as per Elsie. Yes i acknowledge that Elsie does not say he was from Chameria in terms of origin, but that does not omit the father having ties there, nor a source discounting that within the wider discussion had thus far. Nalanidil was reverted because he kept insisting on a website from a royal member which does not meet wp:reliable or wp:secondary. I have gone through much source since those edits and will attain a few more. Whether you want to participate in to this discussion in good faith or not is your call.Resnjari (talk) 00:11, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Two of three sources that say Ali was not of Albanian origin are very old. They are unacceptable. The other one needs to not be alone. Find other reliable sources or end this discussion. There are plenty of sources that explain Ali's Albanian origin, it is the mainstream view and as such should not be equated with fringe views of the past century. Just search Google Books for "Muhammad Ali Albanian" or something similar. There are memoirs of people who met with Ali during their lifetime and wrote on his proudness of being an Albanian. I will add content to the article. Also, Elsie does not say Ali was from Chameria. I have other sources that explain Ali's connection with Chameria in details, he worked as a merchant there for some time. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:49, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Ktrimi991 Indeed, I've never heard the view that M Ali isn't Albanian except in an Arab nationalist context, and many people only know of Albanians because of him. Lucius Castus Oddly enough the same Marsot you list as saying M Ali isn't Albanian, is here on Google Books, Egypt in the reign of Muhammad Ali accessible to all [[17]] saying the opposite -- not only is he Albanian, but you need to know that to understand the man in his early years and his contradictory attitude toward Ottoman authority.

In fact, that we have a leading Egyptian scholar of Egypt writing a page about how his Albanian ethnicity is significant justifies, in my view, including some of these interesting points on this page (in an NPOV and not overly large manner). As I'm sure everyone knows I suck at being concise, so I'm probs not the best one to add this possibly contentious info onto a page but if either you Ktrimi or Resnjari think it might be of use, I welcome you to grab text from my sandbox for inlines since copy-paste doesn't work on Google books.--Calthinus (talk) 03:27, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

The view Muhammad Ali was of Albanian origin is widespread and repeated not only in old writings. Nevertheless in those writings this assumption is not verfied resp. not based on research (scientifically proven) and therefore cannot be taken as serious sources. A assertion comes true by reasons or by evidence not by repeating (quantity is not an argument). There are many myths spread by Muhammad Ali himself of his origin and early life uncritically repeated even in modern writings that are falsified by researches. It is fact that it is often claimed that Muhammad Ali is of Albanian origin, but it is also true that there is no proof for it and that there exist a family legend that claims the opposite. There is no reason to make a definitve statement in this article in this regard and should be carefully worded. The right and fair way would be to summarize the theories in this article by indication of their scientific bases and to refrain from any definitive judgement. (Indeed Marsot is casually attributing Muhammad Ali being of Albanian origin although she admits that there doesn't exist a proof for it. At least she does not give any argument or source by doing so. That's scientifically not the right manner.) --Lucius Castus (talk) 03:58, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I would not consider Marsot as old resp. obsolete source. It has to be considered that the researches about Muhammad Ali's life are very sparsely. This is not a subject of natural sciences. --Lucius Castus (talk) 04:11, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors are not scientists and not investigative journalists. Instead we rely on what the consensus is and what reliable sources say. If, as in the middle they said the earth was flat, according to wikipedia guidelines that is indeed what wikipedia should say even though it is not only unprovable but false. How could we ever "scientifically prove" that M Ali was an Albanian? Not even a haplotype could suffice for that. You yourself were the one who placed Marsot onto this page, so I would expect you to view him as WP:RS and for our purposes, when the author you yourself placed on this place to buttress your arguments says not only that he is Albanian but that you must know that he is Albanian to understand the man, to acknowledge that that is what matters. --Calthinus (talk) 05:32, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Science of history is proving theories scientifically by historical documents. Agreed, we are not scientists and it is not the task of wikipedia editors to proof assertions. But as you explained we could and have to rate sources in regard of their reliability. If a writing is not given a reason or a proof of his assertion, how could this writing be a reliable source then? --- Indeed, I view Marsot as reliable source in general. But as I said, she is claiming Muhammad Ali as of Albanian origin, but she admits that we don't know it resp. that there is no proof for it. It is an explicit unfounded claim by her not a proven resp. true proposition. So it is right to say that Marsot is claiming Albanian origin (as many other doing so), but there is no proof for it. So his Albanian origin is not a fact but a disputed claim, that's why I appealed above for a more carefully wording. --Lucius Castus (talk) 06:06, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Okay, so we can word it to say smth like "he is said to be of Albanian origin" and mention the discussion of how that shaped him by Marsot and others, without saying in Wikipedia's voice "he was Albanian". Does that sound good? --Calthinus (talk) 06:44, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

That's what I had in mind. Additionally I would mention the theory of Anatolian origin too that is elaborately mentioned by Marsot and Fahmy to give a balanced view. --Lucius Castus (talk) 12:40, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Sure a sentence or two is fine. But don't say "of Turkish ancestors" in Wikipedia's voice as the page did recently. Obv that wasn't NPOV and indeed the Albanian stance is far more common. --Calthinus (talk) 18:27, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

On the Albanian stance matter i have come across even Turkish scholarship who refers to an Albanian origin: Bilgenoglu [18] Kavalalı Mehmet Ali Paşa Dönemi Aslen bir Arnavut olan ve Osmanlı ordusunda görevli küçük rütbeli bir subayken; Kara [19] Bu durumu görüp anlayanlar arasında İngiltere'nin Mısır'ı tekrar Babıali'ye devretmesinden sonra valiliğini üstlenen Arnavut maceracı Mehmet Ali de vardı.. I do agree with Calthinus that the majority of scholarship for Muhammad is for an Albanian origin. On the issue of what is the most recent scholarship on this matter, apart from above mentioned examples in posts, there is also: Kuhnke [20] (1990); Meyer [21] (1992); Ajayi [22] (1998); Starkey [23] (2001); Zurcher [24] (2004); Chaurasia [25] (2005); Prashad [26] (2008); Manning [27] (2009); Ibrahim -an Egyptian academic [28] (2010) -this source notes Muhammad being Albanian while also noting that in post-revolutionary Egypt his origins have been highly contested.; Kassab [29] (2010); Daly [30] (2010); Stanton [31] (2011); AlSayyad [32] (2011); Guarak [33] (2011); Kozma [34] (2011); Harris [35] (2012); Vivian [36] (2012); Tejirian & Simon [37] (2012); Bowering & Crone & Kadi & Stewart & Zaman & Mirza [38] (2012); Calotychos [39] 2013); Knight [40] (2013); Yapp [41] (2014); Rubin & Warren [42] (2014); Meredith [43] (2014); Guichard [44] (2014); Taylor [45] (2014); Hall [46] (2014). We are kind of spoiled for choice here, and of course all cannot be placed into the article, as per WP:CITEKILL. A selection of some of these would be good meeting the final cut for going into the article.Resnjari (talk) 23:36, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

... uhh judging from all this we might even have a case of WP:FRINGE here. I think sources that actually have a discussion (rather than just mentioning it) about his ethnicity should take precedence when we're talking about this matter specifically -- Marsot for example makes the cut for me. This page already has a good section that alludes to the history wars regarding M Ali -- although everyone agrees he played a foundational role for Egyptian statehood, some Egyptians want to view him as a real Egyptian rather than a foreigner. Ironically his descendants as well as the entire Albanian community and many Greeks too had their rights violated and were chased out from the country by Nasserism for not being real Egyptians.--Calthinus (talk) 00:19, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

One of those above (apart from Elsie who is also detailed) would be Ibrahim for me, as apart from being a Egyptian scholar, they also state that Muhammad Ali's identity has become contested in post-revolutionary Egypt which ought to be noted.Resnjari (talk) 00:34, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

It's already discussed actually pretty well imo though feel free to add more.--Calthinus (talk) 00:46, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

For that section Ibrahim would be an ok addition. The source carry's weight there.Resnjari (talk)

Prince Osman Rifat Ibrahim's Homepage is a real source, because he is a direct descendant in paternal line of Mehmed Ali Pasha. Please have a Look, His Ancestors was from the Turkish City İliç, www.mohamedali.eu/mohamed_ali.html

Nalanidil, above are many, many scholarly sources and you keep pointing to a website by a royal. This an encyclopedia based on those kind of sources.Resnjari (talk) 00:59, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry Resnjari, I didnt understand you and the other People here, because why you believe any Sholars instead of a real Descendant? Why is this Source, that I given not accepted here? It is a very interesting Homepage of a real member of Muhammad Ali Pashas Dynasty.

He might be an descendant but that does not make him a reliable source since he is not given a proof for it. Being an descendant does not give him a priviliged access per se. Another descendant, Hassan Aziz Hassan, is believing(!) the opposite. See what he has written in his writing In the House of Muhammad Ali: A Family Album, 1805-1952:

There is a theory among some that makes Muhammad Ali a Turk of quite ancient lineage. This was unheard of during my childhood and I prefer to stick to the tradition that he is of Albanian descent — a theory that is backed up by his own words in 1829 to the French travelers Messieurs de Caldavenes and de Breuvery: "Alexander and Ptolemy were Macedonians and I too am from Macedonia." And the fact that he spoke Albanian is most significant. However, the Turkish theory is not to be completely discarded and, if correct, takes the family back another five hundred years into central Turkey. What we do know is that his father's name was Ibrahim Agha, the son of Osman Agha, who was the son of another Ibrahim Agha.

We simply don't know his origin. But we know that there exist two theories resp. two unproven claims about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucius Castus (talk • contribs) 01:15, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

That Muhammad Ali made comments about his own heritage (and that he spoke Albanian) ought to be cited in the article. About further ancestry's going back that that can be added. A person in question can be of a certain ethnicity or nationality while going further back having ancestors of other ethncities due to intermarriage etc but it does not make them per se the ethnicity or nationality of the ancestor (another example is Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Also not all Turkish scholarship is in agreement with the Turkish theory -as i outlined above.Resnjari (talk) 01:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali's statements about his origins are not credible. His statements escpecially in conversation with European were acts of self-portrayal. This is discussed by Khaled Fahmy in his researches All The Pasha’s Men – Mehmed Ali, his army and the making of modern Egypt. Kairo / New York 1997, p. 1–9. and Mehmed Ali: From Ottoman Governor to Ruler of Egypt. Oxford 2008, p. 5–6. There he falsified e.g. Muhammad Ali's claim that his parents died early (a falsified claim that is even repeated in this article). --- That Muhammad Ali has spoken Albanian is a claim mentioned by a descendant. You've missed the point I want to show here that even within descendants there exists no agreement. Their statements are worthless in regard of as a proof. --Lucius Castus (talk) 03:21, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I can't access pages 4-6 [47] of The Pasha’s Men and will need to get a hard copy next week from uni -the other book too (not all pages are appearing for. me on the google books thing. I need to look into the matter of falsification and European travelers. Ali Pasha of Yanina (a sort of contemporary of Muhammad Ali) also had issues of the sort with European travelers and things like that with him told them and what they then relied back in traveler accounts (Fleming discusses this in her the Muslim Bonaparte book). Others too who said they were going to get sources ought to do the same before we proceed from around next week.Resnjari (talk) 05:26, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

The former book I have at hand. I could scan those pages for you. --Lucius Castus (talk) 07:09, 11 November 2017 (UTC) Of course this is an offer to all debaters. --Lucius Castus (talk) 07:15, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

According to The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol. VII, page 423, Ehud R. Toledano, "Muhammad 'Ali was born in the late 1760s (the exact date is under debate) in the small Macedonian port of Kavala [see KAWALA]. His father was an Ottoman soldier of Albanian origins, who rose to command the local force of irregulars, but also engaged in tobacco trading. His mother came from the family of the town governor." --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for that source. Much appreciated.Resnjari (talk) 05:26, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

As in many other, he does not tell us on what basis his confidence of an Albanian origin lies. He presents us only a voluminous bibliography concerning Muhammad Ali and his reign. --Lucius Castus (talk) 07:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

As shown by Resnjari with a very great number of sources the theory that Ali was not an Albanian is a fringe one. The solution is simple because we have just to respect the rules of Wikipedia and precedents that come from articles like Nicola Tesla and Sokollu Mehmed Pasha. Although there are claims that these two figures were not Serbs or that there is no sufficient proof to determine their origin, their respective Wikipedia articles do not give space to such claims. The article should continue to respect serious scholarship and say "Muhammad Ali was born in Kavala, in Macedonia, to an Albanian family". However, as a sign of goodwill I would accept the idea of placing a short sentence on fringe theories, something like "Some scholars such as X and Y have tried to find some non-Albanian origins of Ali". I promised to add some content on Ali's links with Chameria and some other details and I will keep my promise. Resnjari presented multiple reliable sources on Ali's Albanian origin, hence I think to not present others. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:29, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Attributing reliability is not a matter of statistics or numbers but reasoned on a review of the quality of source in regard of the discussed subject. Resnjari presented multiple writings that uncritically asserting that Muhammad Ali was of Albanian origin. None of these authors has reviewed this assertion by original research. They have good reasons for doing so because their subject is not specifically Muhammad Ali's life but other aspects resp. subjects concerning a broader scope. They do not elaborate any theory about his origin, at least they don't presented us their assertion as such because they do not give us any sort of reason for their assertion. I deny any reliability of these sources not in general but in this matter (WP:CONTEXTMATTERS). However I presented two major biographies about Muhammad Ali by Marsot and Fahmy which are based on archival research which both admit that Muhammad Ali is often described as of Albanian origin but that there is in fact no certainty regarding his origin. Both telling us that there exist even an elborated theory about Anatolian origin. Marsot is nevertheless unfoundedly attributing Muhammad Ali as Albanian whereas Fahmy (his study is more recent than Marsot's one) comes to the conclusion that the idea of Albanian origin is erroneous. So it would be a good account in this article to say that he is often described as being of Albanian origin but that there is not any proof for it and that there exist a family legend describing him of Anatolian origin. That would summarize the recent state of research adequately. --Lucius Castus (talk) 18:24, 11 November 2017 (UTC) --Lucius Castus (talk) 18:48, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I need to get hardcopies of Fahmy and Marsot (by early next week) as both especially with the first covers many pages before i can proceed further. Anyway Ktrimi991 you were saying previously you have access to sources as well, so like this we can proceed without endless this, that or the other. Best.Resnjari (talk) 01:48, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Take your time then. --Lucius Castus (talk) 04:24, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

It is interesting that one Family Members said Albanian the other said Turkish Ancestor. But please have a look to his relatives the descendants of his sister Zubayda who was married with Miralay Mustafa, the Ancestor of the Yeğen Family. Yeğen is Turkish and mean Nephew. Also Muhammad Ali's descendants are married within the Ottoman Dynasty. Many of his descendants today live in Turkey. Çorbaci Husain Agha was his maternal Grandfather, by the way the word Çorbaci is Turkish.Nalanidil (talk) 02:03, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Doubtful assertions that need review

In this article are two assertions made that I doubt and demand a proof resp. a realiable source for them:

• It is claimed that his wife, Emine Nusratli, was a wealthy widow of Ali Bey.
• It is claimed that Muhammad Ali Pasha is named Muhammad Ali Pasha al-Mas'ud ibn Agha. Muhammad Ali was born in Rumelia, spent his early life there, considered himself as Ottoman and spoke Turkish as mother-tongue. The elite in Egypt was of Ottoman tradition. Any form of Arabization began not before his death in latter half of 19th century. Also the name does not make any sense. Nasab and Nisbah are on wrong places. Nasab "ibn Agha" claims that his father was a guy named "Agha". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucius Castus (talk • contribs) 17:59, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Aga is a title not a givenname. Mehmed Ali Pasha's fathers name was Ibrahim and he was a Aga. Emine was the daughter of Nusretli Ali Aga, Nusretli is not a surename, it is the City Nikofors today. She was the Widow of the Turk Serezli Ali Bey not tis Ali Bey who is given in the link.Nalanidil (talk) 02:04, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Could you sign your contributions please? Indeed correctly it must be "ibn Ibrahim Agha", nevertheless that would be constructed. I want a proof for this way of naming. Regarding Ali Bey I will delete his mentioning. As person and as fact it is not relevant. --Lucius Castus (talk) 05:13, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

He was not an Albanian!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKI5zEpmE1o&t=1078s 15.50 in this video, Prince Abbas Hilmi clearly states that Muhammad Ali Pasha's father came to Kavala from Turkish city Konya. Also he says that Muhammad Ali Pasha's native language was Turkish and that almost all members of the dynasty can spoke Turkish. If his father came from Konya, how could he be Albanian? I demand that the ethnicity section be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnl0g 044 (talk • contribs) 22:10, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

To seek consensus and fair depiction of facts in the free encyclopedia

Hi have recently edited the page by providing sources. Note that I did not remove anything from the article. I quickly found out at least one "misinterpretation", so to speak. Kia does not claim Muhammed was Albanian. The source included a quote that had nothing to do with ethnicity. I inserted the correct quote, where Kia actually states that his ethnicity is unknown but some claim he was Albanian. We have multiple reliable sources claiming Turkish and Kurdish origin. That alone makes those sources and the claims they back suitable to be included in the article. But considering that we have no evidence for what his origins are, none of these claims can be false based on primary sources. Then we can talk as along as you want and I can explain why, according to me, this person was not of Albanian origin. Mine and anybody else's opinion does not really matter and I would like it if we all focused on sources.

I also take this opportunity to ask User talk:Ahmet Q. to come discuss matters here and stop edit warring, which is never good. Also, please explain why you are undoing my edits, thus removing content, while all I did was adding to the article.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 22:57, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Haldir Marchwarden instead of edit-warring you should try to discuss your point of view on the talk page. You have been warned multiple times for your disruptive behavior. Ahmet Q. (talk) 23:08, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Ktrimi991 you can come back with a thousand sources I'll come back with more. It doesn't matter. We do not know his origins, thus any claim cannot be false based on factual evidence, and as long as it is backed, it may be included. That his Albanian origin may be the most popular version among Albanians and most of other people after it was published on Wikipedia I do not doubt. This doesn't justify excluding all other possibilities, nor does it mean it is the widespread view among scholars. Nobody here is asking to delete the claim he was Albanian, or to delete anything else from the article. But you cannot stop other editors to expand it. All I added does not contradict what already stated. I really think of Wikipedia as a free Encyclopedia, not one were a certain version is forced. I had heated arguments with Demetrios1993 and Beshogur on similar topics and they corrected me in the past. Maybe they can tell me in advance if I am wrong here as well.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 23:13, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

No, I have been warned zero times about this in this matter, and for the rest you should mind your own business. While I was discussing things here at the talk page, you were publishing warnings at my talk page and reverting my good-faith edits backed by sources without even stating a reason in the edit summary. I am here to discuss, so let's discuss. I just pointed out to you why your behavior is disruptive. I added to the article, you deleted from it. All I added is backed by sources, all them are reliable, and, again, nothing was deleted. So why shouldn't my addition be included in the article?--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 23:17, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: If there is a substantial amount of sources supporting Muhammad Ali's origins being anything other than the viewpoint maintained in the article, then, they have to be reflected on article. WP:NPOV states that all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources should be included, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published reliable sources. So I will ask: are the other viewpoints on the matter significant enough to warrant inclusion? If no, then the "last stable version" stays as is. If yes, then the "last stable version" cannot remain, as there is a violation of Wikipedia's NPOV rules. In this case, the dispute should be resolved in line with WP:NPOV and the article will need to be corrected. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 06:30, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi ❖ SilentResident ❖, thanks for your insight and help in this matter. Yes, the other viewpoints are definitely relevant enough. In fact, the whole Albanian thing is more assumed by people than claimed by scholars, and the assumption is based on actions of his descendants and the ethnicity of the subject's military clique. The other viewpoints have been published by multiple reliable sources. I just have a doubt about whether we should include the claim of the Turkish Encyclopedia (merely because I heard other editors say "it is unreliable", and others that we cannot include it because it is tertiary). This doesn't necessarily have to do with ethnicity but is about the geographical origins of the family and possible inaccuracies in the popular view about his early life (his father seems to have died later on, when Muhammad was 22). The TDV's claims are based on Ottoman documents they claim to have. The way I dealt with it (see my last version) is mention this important fact but also report that it is a claim by the Turkish Encyclopedia. I also have a question: may I now edit the article so the other viewpoints are included? Thanks--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 09:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

The Turkish Encyclopedia is not WP:RS. It's WP:TERTIARY and inaccurate and even WP:FRINGE many times. Muhammad Ali's Albanian origin is not what some people say. It's what the dynasty itself knew about its origins which led Farouk to claim the Albanian throne basing his claim on his Albanian descent. It's what every person who ever met Muhammad Ali has written and it's what everyone in Egypt knew about them because when they were overthrown, the new Egyptian regime blamed Farouk's Albanian-descended dynasty ('a family of non-Egyptians') (Wawro, Geoffrey (2010). Quicksand: America's Pursuit of Power in the Middle East. Penguin. p. 178. ISBN 1101197684.).--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:45, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Haldir Marchwarden, sorry but what the Turkish Wikipedia does say on the matter, is irrelevant and none of English Wikipedia's business. Each Wikipedia is independent from the other. However while I can see the sources here: [48], I will appreciate if can you provide them (both those in your diffs, and any other sources you may haven't used yet) here in the talk page. Any reliable sources you may have on Ali's origins, in an orderly fashion, groupped by their views (Kurd or Anatolian Kurd) for the sake of all participants in the talk page. That will be great and very helpful.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:48, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Maleschreiber: It's what the dynasty itself knew about its origins which led Farouk to claim the Albanian throne basing his claim on his Albanian descent. Unfortunately for you and for us (because it would spare us the argument) he likely wasn't of Albanian origin, though maybe it's what you want to see (by the way, the article is about Muhammad Ali, not the dynasty). At best, his origins are utterly unknown. Even the most nationalist of Albanians knows there actually is no evidence for their claim. You made a fuss over that quote below... when I just found out someone faked Kia and used him to support what he never said. I'll say it clear: the man had Albanian bodyguards and his descendants were looking to get the throne of newly independent Albania which is how the myth came about and why they were so "proud of their Albanian heritage". When anybody who roamed the world and paid attentions to details looks at the painting of this man, the first thing they say is: Persian! Yet I already said it and I'll repeat it: let's put aside what you and I think. Let's focus on sources. The other claims are well sourced, we actually have sources explaining how (what might be the) Albanian myth came about. Below you make a fuss about that single source. By the way, that quote was used to back the claim that there was a family tradition claiming Kurdish descent. I don't care about what the author thinks about quality and charisma in this instance. All those supporting the Albanian view must accept that other views exist, and allow other editors to publish them if they are backed by sources. I came across lots of big claims (possibly of nationalistic matrix) on Balkanic articles, yet hardly ever deleted anything, not even if it had zero sources. Why would anybody stop me from expanding this article with sources?

❖ SilentResident ❖, thanks again for your help and calm attitude. For the Turkish Encyclopedia: it's fine and I understand. The fact is that this time they actually claimed there are documents proving what they say. But it's fine, I understand. I will list the sources below:

• ethnicity/ origins actually unknown

• According to family tradition they were of Kurdish origin

and

• Kurdish origin (note: last one is a self-published work. Useful herein to further show that the Kurd claim does exist)

• Turk/Anatolian Turk origin

• Than I would mention that Fahmy reports that Muhammad's close association with Albanians gave rise to the idea that this was his ethnicity.*

{*}Note that beside this, in my last version I also included that Farouk said he was "proud of his Albanian heritage" (taken in good faith from Farouk's article and not verified) in favour of Albanians, attempting to be just. Also note that I found this source of Fahmy and The Founder of Modern Egypt: A Study of Muhammad 'Ali on this talk page and I was not able to verify them at Google books. In good faith I trust the op, and, even with bad faith, they do look all right.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 22:19, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

References

 Comment: OK, gave a quick look at the sources Haldir Marchwarden has presented here, and they seem to confirm that different opinions on the person's origin in fact, do exist and are significant enough to warrant inclusion. I can't see why they shouldn't be covered in the article about that person in line with the WP:NPOV policy. May the editors who have reverted Haldir Marchwarden, please explain the exact reason they have opposed their inclusion to the article? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I check every source used by other editors. When you take a half-sentence and quote it as [Muhammed Ali's] origin is clearly Anatolian Turk, you should know that I will read the entire chapter. This publication doesn't adopt this view, it lists it as the opinion of a Turkish author [Muhammed Ali's] origin is clearly Anatolian Turk Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, The Turks in Egypt and Their Cultural Legacy. But the author of the publication writes: His parents were Albanian, he knew some Turkish, but no Arabic. (..) During this period of anarchy, Muhammad Ali used his Albanian authority to gain prestige and power for himself.

Continuation of Marsoot (1984) chapter: That was pure myth (..) All the Albanians in the Ottoman forces in Egypt formed a bloc within the army that was distinct and separate from the rest of the men (..) Because of the tribal character of the Albanian troops and the demise of their superior officers, none but an Albanian could lead these troops and this, as well as his qualities and charisma, accounts for Muhammad Ali's swift rise in rank. The fact that Muhammad Ali was an Albanian, a member of a linguistic and ethnic minority group within the Ottoman is significant See WP:SELFPUBLISHED and WP:UNDUE for some other sources. For every world famous figure, there is some undue opinion about their origin. Muhammad Ali was known as an Albanian and his dynasty was always discussed as Albanian. In Turkey, there is a narrative which claims that figures of the Ottoman era in northern Africa were Turks. This narrative is related to Turkish politics. Wikipedia doesn't have to reproduce it.

Side comment: We shouldn't discuss about Muhammad Ali in terms of how many sources say he was Albanian vs. how many say he wasn't. I can bring a 100x more which say that he was Albanian, but it's not important. What matters is that sources which say that he was Albanian, do so based on historical reality and bibliographical details, not apocryphal stories about a distant ancestor from the depths of Anatolia. In all claims in Turkish historiography, it's always the same narrative: "This person was Turkish because he had a very distant ancestor from Anatolia, but by the time he (it's never a "she") was born, they had forgotten about their origin" @SilentResident: Haldir wrote that an Ottoman Serb general was an Albanian (Gedik Ahmed Pasha) and for the same reason I opposed their edits. @Haldir Marchwarden: It doesn't seem likely that you will get a consensus for your edits, but you can file a new discussion at RfC. It will save everyone - including you - much time from their weekend and you will get to read some new opinions.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:27, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

.User:Maleschreiber I really do not understand why you keep climbing mirrors. I checked that chapter too, since I provided the source. The fact in the book it is reported the claim originates from a Turkish author doesn't make the claim less real or the author unreliable. It is reported in a secondary source, by an author writing for a prominent English publisher. That's all. By the way, nobody is saying the Albanian claim does not exist (nor, again, is anybody trying to remove it or hide it). Indeed, that author does report the Albanian claim as well, and, differently from many others, opts to give prominence to it instead of the Persian or Turkish ones.

You: For every world famous figure, there is some undue opinion about their origin, of course, like Barbarossa's Albanian claims which I already discussed. But this is not the same as Barbarossa. The Kurd viewpoint is much stronger, and we have a considerable number of sources mentioning his Kurdish descent. About Marsoot: he is being used to show that the family had a belief they were of Kurdish descent. You should also report the full quote. What was a myth according to him? Their own belief or the fact that they believed such a thing? I can bring 200 more saying he was Kurd and it's not important either. That viewpoint exists, deal with it. WP:UNDUE? We have multiple sources proving the other claims do exist, which several editors attempted to publish on WP in the past but were blocked, and SilentResident just told you that other viewpoints do exist and are significant. Why you don't want to accept this? Is it possible that this has some kind of special importance to you? WP:SELFPUBLISHED? One source, and I stated clearly what is the reasons why I posted it here.

You: In all claims in Turkish historiography, it's always the same narrative: "This person was Turkish because he had a very distant ancestor from Anatolia, but by the time he" (it's never a 'she') "was born, they had forgotten about their origin" now you are making personal attacks against Turkish authors. Keep your opinion of Turkish authors to yourself or provide reliable sources explaining those specific authors' malevolent intent. And by the way, you haven't spoken about the Kurdish viewpoint yet. My irrational and hopefully entertaining rant at Gedik Pasha is irrelevant here, as is my attempt to discover whether Demetrios (that page's watcher) were a Serbian nationalist or not and my endeavor to ensure no Albanian nationalist would ever pollute Gedik Ahmed Pasha again, and you shouldn't be attempting to make covert attacks against me as well. Gedik has nothing to do with this because in his case there is actually a document proving he was a Serbian noble. In this case, we have no clue as of his origins (by the way, there is the Turkish encyclopedia claiming they have documents proving he was from Anatolia). Thus you did not oppose my edits for the same reason. In that case you opposed (actually, agreed with) me because there is evidence proving Gedik's Serbian descent. Here you are arguing to suppress other viewpoints for some other reason only you know what it is, since we all know there is no evidence for the Albanian and the Kurdish claims (and possibly for the Turkish/Anatolian). Trust me that this time around the nationalists forcing their viewpoints won't win. This is a free encyclopedia. Those viewpoints exist. Deal with it, and spare us the week-end.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 16:22, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Haldir Marchwarden, this is a free encyclopedia, indeed. If you do believe that the lack of consensus here is really stemming from any nationalist agendas or something, then I'd suggest a RfC on the matter. It is the most recommended (and usually effective) way for overcoming a deadlock of this kind. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:08, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

However, I shall note that the RfC is usually about building up consensus. Because the core of the issue here is apparently touching on WP:NPOV policy (This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.) seeking to build consensus on the matter (that is, a RfC) may not be the most necessary or recommended solution, since, it is the different viewpoints that are at stake here. A consensus may not suppress different views if they do exist, and they may be covered in the article as long as they are independent, notable and reliably published. In this case I would recommend seeking an independent third party advice. Present the sources and information and ask for a third opinion. If the third opinion agrees with adding them to the article in line with WP:NPOV, WP:DUE and WP:RELIABLESOURCE, then you can go on. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:23, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

>SilentResident, well I got carried away a little, and I don't know the intentions of the editors now involved. Plus, I keep good faith. But if you read some comments above, there's possibly more than nationalism. Like: Kurdish origins!!! What a nonsens!!! Are you OK??????!!!!--Babaeski Is user doubting the claim, or the fact that a Kurd could be king of Egypt and command the Albanians? Anyway, I reiterate that we should include the existing viewpoints. Like you noticed, the other editors must be consistent: you cannot publish all viewpoints on some articles (like Barbarossa, for whom the Albanian claims don't have a modicum of truth, and are not as well sourced) and only one on others. Am I wrong?--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 18:24, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Allright SilentResident, how may I ask for a third opinion?--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 18:28, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

As much as this may upset you, try to focus on content, not editors. I had my own share of gripe with nationalist editors in the past too, believe me, but ultimately they are just a minority, and we are here about the content, not them. If you spot any editors making any racist statements against ethnicities of people, throw a warning at their talk page. If they presist, then report them to the Admins. The admins usually take very seriously any cases involving derogatory statements that are targeting people's ethnicities. Just recently, someone got blocked indefinitely, among others, for ethnicity-based disruption after we filled, along with other editors, a complaint against them at the ANI.

To seek input from third, independent parties over the WP:DISPUTE, the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard is a good place to go. Also, if the disagreement revolves around the reliability or notability of sources, then the Reliable Sources Noticeboard should be considered as well. I resolved quite a few disputes there myself. The mediators/admins there are experienced and their opinion on the sources is valuable. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:59, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Allright, I will try at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. Thanks.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 20:25, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Origin

The very majority of sources on GB describe him as having Albanian origin. Based on that and WP:UNDUE, any proposal for change of wording should be carefully evaluated here. I will soon post a list of sources. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:00, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Exactly. Ahmet Q. (talk) 23:13, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991:@Ahmet Q.: Haldir is abusing bibliography. From the only non-Turkish source he cited, he used only a small part of a detailed examination of sources:

• Haldir's quote: He was the son of Uthman Agha, the son of Ibrahim Agha, showing a military background for three generations. Beyond that, little is known about the family, or their origins. While historians have described them as being of Albanian origin, a family tradition believed that they might have been of Kuridsh stock, and come from a village, Ilic, eastern Anatolia, where they were horse traders.
• Chapter: He was the son of Uthman Agha, the son of Ibrahim Agha, showing a military background for three generations. Beyond that, little is known about the family, or their origins. While historians have described them as being of Albanian origin, a family tradition believed that they might have been of Kuridsh stock, and come from a village, Ilic, eastern Anatolia, where they were horse traders. (..) That was pure myth (..) All the Albanians in the Ottoman forces in Egypt formed a bloc within the army that was distinct and separate from the rest of the men (..) Because of the tribal character of the Albanian troops and the demise of their superior officers, none but an Albanian could lead these troops and this, as well as his qualities and charisma, accounts for Muhammad Ali's swift rise in rank. The fact that Muhammad Ali was an Albanian, a member of a linguistic and ethnic minority group within the Ottoman is significant.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
• If they try to do the same thing again, ask for admin oversight.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: IMO, from what I have understood so far in the talk page, none has disputed that there are sources supporting his Albanian origin. For me, it looks like the other way around: sources that are supporting different viewpoints about the person's origin, are arbitrarily left out of the article. From past debates, I remember that, both of you, Maleschreiber and Ktrimi991, were in favor of respecting WP:NPOV which states that different view points, as long as they are reliable and significant, must be covered in the articles. Am I right or did I miss something here? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:44, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

What you should take note of is that they are WP:UNDUE or WP:POV or WP:SELFPUBLISHED or don't support Haldir's claims. It's all part of modern narratives in Turkish politics related to claims about northern Africa. You'll find the same narratives about Turks in Libya etc. Haldir is claiming as Turkish, an individual and a dynasty which was never known as Turkish.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:08, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

No Maleschreiber (by the way, WP:SELFPUBLISHED: one source and I stated clearly why I included it herein). This article is about Muhammad, not his dynasty, his descendants and the claims they made. The sources do support my statements, which in fact derive from the sources. It's not part of modern Turkish narrative (by the way, that doesn't even account for the Kurdish claim). Maybe that Muhammad, Barbarossa and many others were Albanian is part of modern Albanian narrative, let me say. You claim they were "never known as Turkish", I doubt it, but can you support this claim with some sources? Also, what does it even matter? Political moves? Let me say that's where the claim of Albanian heritage of the descendants probably comes from. Keeping in mind that we have no idea about Muhammad's origins (well, not considering the documents the Turkish Encyclopedia claims exist, reportedly proving his Anatolian descent), we must report other viewpoints because, after all, this is not an Albanian dictatorial Encyclopedia, but a free encyclopedia with a neutral pov. It is evidently your opinion that the dynasty and Muhammad are not of Turkish (and not Kurdish, I presume?) origin. Your opinion differs from that of multiple scholars. We saw that other viewpoints exist, why suppress them?--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 18:06, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Turkish Encyclopedia is WP:TERTIARY and not WP:RS. I've expanded some of the full quotes of sources you've used to highlight misquoting. As I haven't even reverted you, you shouldn't be asking consensus for your edits from me. You tried to add your edits and you were reverted by 3 different editors. The next step for you is to file a discussion at RfC.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:29, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, frankly, if I were you, I wouldn't be too enthusiast about bringing up the "reverted by 3 different editors" argument here, when the contribution logs in a number of articles in the Albania-topic area indicate that these 3 same editors are editing on the same articles to promote a pro-Albanian POV, is less of a coincidence than what the eye meets in Muhammad Ali's article. Right? An experienced editor of Wikipedia may recognize this pattern as being the definition of WP:TAGTEAMING. Due to this I strongly believe that closer admin/AE moderation may be required on the Albania topic area, just like in the Serbia and other Balkan topic areas. Also, in light of this issue, I have advised the editor Haldir Marchwarden to seek a third opinion elsewhere because it is clear that any different viewpoints that may contradict the pro-Albanian narrative aren't tolerated, despite the user providing reliable sources on the matter. Something which the editor agreed to do so. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 10:01, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

So for this guy, in English language "some" means "one"? Turkish Encyclopedia is not the heart of the matter and you know it. That is only about a piece of information (his place of birth and inaccuracies in the popular retelling ostensibly proved by documents they claim to have), it is hardly used to back the Kurdish and Turkish claims about his (ethnical) origin, for which we have multiple reliable sources. The quote you expanded is used to back the existence of a family tradition, not the personal opinion of the author (differing from that of many others). (beside what SilentResident said) The three different editors did not join the discussion beyond an initial comment. And in light of what SilentReader said maybe it's better if they don't at this point. I am requesting a third, independent opinion. Like Silent tried to explain to you, the RfC is usually about building up consensus, but here the core of the issue is WP:NPOV policy ("This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.").--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 10:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

@Haldir Instead of relying on the opinions of one editor about what is "pro-Albanian" and what RFC is, it's better to read WP:RFC. Requests for comment (RfC) is a process for requesting outside input concerning disputes, policies, guidelines or article content. Your edits were disputed by several editors. Some problems include misrepresentation of sources which is a far bigger issue than using self-published books. NPOV doesn't mean that all points of view should be included but that all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight should make it into an article. A full protection expires tomorrow and you should use this opportunity to start a debate per RFC and avoid edit-warring. Ahmet Q. (talk) 11:51, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

You didn't ping me correctly User. There is no "misrepresentation of sources" talking about Kurdish origin and the Kurd Muhammad Ali. There clearly is climbing on mirrors though. all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight: exactly, which is obviously the case, and the denial of which means there's something wrong. I thought it was a happenstance when I saw your buddy quickly removing the warning I put on you talk page (maybe it wasn't technically appropriate, but still). In my opinion, the only people warring here are those suppressing other viewpoints and not allowing me to expand the article. There's nothing to discuss about the inclusion of something backed by sources that objectively exist. I read your friend talking about Nikola Tesla and Sokullu. That's completely different, that's another planet. We are talking about people born in Yugoslavia speaking the Slavic language, born to people with Serb names and speaking the Serbian language. This is a man born in Greece, who never made statements about his origins, for which there is no evidence. All possible evidence is: a) family tradition about Kurdish origin b) Anatolian origin according to documents the Turkish Encyclopedia claim exist. But most importantly, the other viewpoints do exist, and they are held by many scholars, possibly as many (or not much less) as those copy-pasting the Albanian claim. What should be discussed is tag teaming and suppression of information, about forcing a certain viewpoint. But this is not the place. Hopefully someone will have a look into it though. EDIT: I didn't refrain from editing because of the block. I won't edit again until a third party like an admin looks into the matter and tells me to go on. So it doesn't matter to me if the block expires.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 17:26, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

EDIT2: Wow, I just realized the bullcr*p about his family being from Korça. Malschreiber wisely tried to take at least that one away. They fake sources like Kia [EDIT3= Kia wasn't actually "faked", but the way it is used, at the end of the sentence, it seems he supports the Albanian origins. In fact, like nearly all scholars, he makes clear that Muhammad Ali's origins are unknown, stating: Some have suggested that he was an ethnic Albanian. Though his ethnic origins remain uncertain, we know for certain that he was a Muslim], and tell sheer lies. Then (possibly others, I'm not saying it's the same) they climb on mirrors, while they say we need to "discuss" suppression of information with them. Surely, tag-teaming out the forced viewpoint wouldn't be that difficult in that case.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 18:09, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

RfC

One user (me) has added content backed by sources about the origins of the subject, for which all agree there is no actual evidence (with the exception of a document located in Turkey, whose existence is disputed; and a tradition in the subject's family). At least two users oppose this addition because they say the sources are misused, unreliable, and self-published. They claim the first user (me) is "abusing bibliography". The first user (me) argues that it is not true that the sources are misused, unreliable, and self-published, that bibliography isn't being abused, and that all viewpoints whose existence is proven by multiple reliable sources must be included in the article, especially considering that the origins of the subject are unknown, and that he was born in a place different from the claimed ethnicities (Greece) and is chiefly important to yet another country (Egypt).--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 12:40, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali was born and lived in a multi-ethnic Empire. Birthplace and region of activity is not related to ethnicity. I've written about the use of bibliography in the previous discussions. There are literally hundreds of sources which say that Muhammad Ali was Albanian because his ethnic background is historical fact which permeated the entire history of the dynasty he founded. It's not just that Muhammad Ali was Albanian: all of his descendants frequently referred to their ancestry. It's not that some sources say that they were Albanian, they themselves explicitly have maintained this tradition. His dynasty is the reason why Albanians in Egypt exist as a community because Albanians were singled out for tax exemptions and visa-free settling in Egypt. A few notes about Fuad I of Egypt(great-grandson of Muhammad Ali):

• History of the Coptic Orthodox People and the Church of Egypt: In 1913, Fuad made unsuccessful attempts to secure for himself the throne of Albania, which had obtained its independence from the Ottoman Empire a year earlier. At the time, Egypt and Sudan were ruled by his nephew, Abbas II, and the likelihood of Fuad becoming the monarch in his own country seemed remote. Given the fact that the Muhammad Ali Dynasty was of Albanian descent, encouraged Fuad to seek the Albanian throne.
• Foundations of Modernity: Human Agency and the Imperial StateDocuments produced by consuls based in Cairo during the period of 1880-1912 offer a rich picture of the way in which factions in the Ottoman Arnavut migrant communities operated in Egypt. (..) These Austrian reports, for instance, reveal that among the prominent Muslim Toskë families in Egypt (..) alliances were generally forged with the Khedive's family. In one of these internal Austro-Hungarian reports: Faik Konitza, based in Brussels, once highlighted the close relationship with select groups of Ottoman Albanian living in Egypt. For instance, the uncle of the Khedive, Ahmed Fuad Pasha, supported the publishing of Albanian-language journals, both in Arabic and Greek script, throught Egypt and the larger Mediterranean world. (Ottoman Refugees, 1878-1939: Migration in a Post-Imperial World)--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:57, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• What exactly is the short, neutral question that this RfC poses? PraiseVivec (talk) 15:17, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Sorry Haldir, but the RfC mustn't focus on your disagreements with other editors and what they may believe about the disputed content. The RfC question needs to be precise, short, and neutral, focusing solely on the content you want: You want to ask the third party editors if the content qualifies for inclusion to the article. Therefore the RfC question should be something on the lines of, i.e: "should this X content be on the article?" And below that question, snap the references backing it, so that the third editors can access and verify the information for themselves. Also before I forget to mention it: whether there was a dispute on the source's reliability is not what the RfC question should really be about. That's why the Reliable Sources Noticeboard is recommended for, after all. The reliability of a source is something the participants of the RfC may assess by themselves as they read your question, and they will tell you if there is indeed any problem with it. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 21:45, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: It has come to my awareness that the OP of the RfC has been WP:TBANed from discussing or editing in the WP:BALKANS topic area (which covers the article of Muhammad Ali of Egypt as well). The topic ban was applied about a hour after the RfC had opened. Therefore the editor will not be able to address the concerns and issues we have raised about the present, lengthy and ambiguous RfC question. Given this, I can't see how the RfC can proceed at the current state. I'd recommend the RfC's closure. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 07:54, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Given the above comment by SilentResident, I've gone ahead and boldly removed the RfC template. (Summoned by bot) I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 23:44, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, I dream of horses. Much appreciated. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 00:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Ethymology of Tosun

Ethymology of Tosun is Turkic.Name of son of Albanian(?) Muhammad Ali Pahsa is Turkic origin.Why? 88.227.82.115 (talk) 17:02, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Origins

Hi Durraz0, regarding your revert I don’t see how it is justifiable to remove all of the cited sources on the basis that you could not see Mazower describe him as Turkish, however I see that you mentioned WP:UNDUE and that this has been discussed before which seems fair. I think that it is important to maintain a neutral point of view and refrain from biased editing. Given the fact that his “Turk” (or “Turkish”) origin is consistently mentioned by reliable sources, it doesn’t seem fair to exclude this claim in the article. Another thing I’d like to add is that the first cited source clearly states that his origins remain uncertain and this should be stated in the article. I’ve provided a list of reliable sources below so that you can see the claims of Turk origin are indeed consistent.

• “Mehmed Ali was not an Arab and he did not speak Arabic: descended from a modest Turkish family long resident in Kavala”

• “Centuries later the Sudan was incorporated into Egypt by Mehmet Ali, a Turk from Kavala”

• “Mehmed Ali descended from a family, most probably of Turkish origin, that had emigrated from south-east Anatolia and settled in Kavala in southern Macedonia some time earlier."

• A letter written by Muhammad Ali: “since the Turks are members of our race and since they must be spared the trouble of being sent to remote and dangerous areas, it has become necessary to conscript around 4,000 men from Upper Egypt [to replace them].”

• “Parallels , too , could be drawn with the historical figure Muhammad Ali himself ( 1805-1848 ) since he was a Turk from Kavala who fought with Egyptian forces”

• “Still more amazing than the career of this once obscure Turkish officer are the enormous changes brought about by his work in the condition and the international position of Egypt”

• “Born in Macedonia in 1769 of a Turkish - Albanian family , he went to Egypt in 1798”

• “Mohammed Ali ( 1769-1848 ) , born in Macedonia of a Turkish - Albanian family , traveled to Egypt in 1798”‪‬

• “Mehmet Ali was born at Kavala , a walled seaport in Albania in 1769 , the son of a local official of Turkish descent”

• Translated from Turkish (using google translate): “However, in a document written by his son İbrahim Pasha, Mehmet Ali's father İbrahim Ağa and his grandfather Osman Ağa left Konya for Kavala due to a blood feud.”

• Translated from Turkish (using google translate): “The rumors that he is Albanian do not seem to be true. Mehmet Ali belongs to a Turkish family that settled in Kavala from Arabkir”

• Translated from Turkish (using google translate): “He came from Kavala. Mehmed Ali Ağa was born in Kavala in 1769. His father, İbrahim Ağa, was the derbend landlord, that is, the head guard of the Kavala castle. The family came from Konya and settled in this city.”

Regards, Kabz15 (talk)

References

• Comment I've participated in the older discussions and I'm very skeptical of the conclusion of a Turkish theory. A Turkish theory was created and propagated within Turkish historiography and reflects the political-ideological narratives of Turkish academia towards northern Africa. From Turkish academia it was internationalized outwards. I've read similar claims about many other figures of north African history . It is interesting that among old members of the Muhammad Ali dynasty such a theory was unknown (p.4), the dynasty was always known as Albanian and they even claimed the throne of Albania. These are real events which Turkish academia circumvents and put forwards a claim which historically has no real functional meaning. The Muhammad Ali dynasty presented itself and maintained many connections with Albanians. Muhammad Ali himself, a native speaker of Albanian, always presented himself to foreign consuls as a "descendant of Ptolemy and Alexander of Macedonia". This is a fictional narrative which he employed to show to European powers that he came from a background similar to them, but it is interesting that he never considered himself of non-Balkan or non-European origin. Side comment: Kavala is in Thrace, hundreds of km to the east of Albania.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:38, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
• Comment Grandson of Muhammad Ali, Prince Abbas Hilmi, in his interview with Murat Bardakçı, says that his family's migration route to Kavala was as follows: "They went from İliç to Konya, they went from Konya to Edirne and they went from Edirne to Kavala." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKI5zEpmE1o&t=1078s&ab_channel=Habert%C3%BCrk85.104.66.183 (talk) 19:47, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

First, I would advise you to login to your account if you have one. Secondly, there are many books and interviews from members of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty which even claimed the Albanian throne on the basis of their origins. Thirdly, there is even a statement by Muhammad Ali: On m'a raconte qu'Alexandre et Ptolemee etaient Macedoniens, et mois aussi je suis de la Macedoine. Notre pays devait donc donner trois fois des maitress a l'Egype. [I was told that Alexander and Ptolemy were Macedonians, and I too am from Macedonia. Our country therefore had to give teachers three times to Egypt] Turkish claims are products of the recent past in relation to geopolitical events in northern Africa. There are similar claims made in Turkey for many leading families of northern Africa. The reason why they haven't been included in most articles including this one is because there is an WP:UNDUE imbalance between these sources most of which are published in Turkey and all other sources.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:59, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Firstly the word "Macedonian" in your comment does not indicate an ethnicity, secondly this is not a "turkish theory", multiple academic-reliable non-Turkish sources have been given above. Also there are more evidences about his origin, the name of the son of Muhammad Ali is "Tusun" which is an old Turkic name, i don't think any Albanian would give this name for his son. And also there is a document written by Ibrahim Pasha states that Muhammad Ali's father Ibrahim Agha and grandfather Osman Agha emigrated from Konya to Kavala due to a feud which is evidence that they emigrated from Anatolia. Btw, sorry i don't have an account. 85.104.192.46 (talk) 21:03, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

@ 85.104.192.46 with all respect, I am afraid that User:Maleschreiber's statements about them being Turkish claims are products of the recent past in relation to geopolitical events in northern Africa (emphasis in italics) are unfortunately true. Since the early 2010s, there is a campaign of misinformation conducted by the Justice and Development Party (AKP) government of Turkey, including claims published by state-controlled educational institutions in Turkey, as well as AKP-controlled media, which are promoting a certain historical revisionist narrative that aims at increasing the AKP government's influence abroad and justifying assertive neo-Ottoman policies on several fronts, including the Balkans, Caucasus, the Arab world and the East Mediterranean. Sources from Turkey should be used very cautiously by Wikipedia's editors, especially when it comes to politics and history. This issue of misinformation by Turkey is affecting not only Muhammad Ali's article and other articles in the Albania topic area, but also other areas of Wikipedia, and I already have expressed my concerns just 2 days ago, there, at User:Demetrios1993's talk page: [49] with section title "Article tackling on the issue of media misinformation in Turkey?" --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 07:03, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

User:SilentResident Brother, I understand your concerns, but please look at the sources provided by the user Kabz15 above, many of them are older than the Justice and Development party and many of them are non-Turkish sources. The fact that Muhammad Ali is a Turk has nothing to do with the Turkish government.85.104.71.132 (talk) 20:27, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes I can see that the sources are non-Turkish but this isn't enough criteria for inclusion; I havent checked the sources thoroughly to see whether they refer to Turkish state-influenced sources, or make these conclusions by themselves, independently. In the case they do, then these different views among scholars may be added to the article per WP:NPOV and particularly WP:DUE, provided that they are a significant minority at least. --- SilentResident ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 14:08, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello ❖ SilentResident ❖. Thanks for participating in this discussion. I started this discussion in order to seek consensus for the addition of the Turkish origin claims in the article and I provided a number of sources to prove that it is a consistent claim. I noticed that you mentioned these different views may be added to the article and I also noticed the issue with the Turkish sources and possible Turkish influenced sources from AKP propaganda in the early 2010s, therefore I will provide additional non Turkish sources and hopefully this will be beneficial and help progress this discussion.

• “Muhammad Ali's last years were passed in peace. In 1846 he visited Constantinople and Kawala; in 1848 he lost his son Ibrahim to whom so many of his military successes were due. On August 2, 1849 he himself died in Alexandria, to be succeeded by Tusun's son 'Abbas Pasha [q. v.]. He was buried in the new mosque which he had had erected in the citadel of Cairo. Still more amazing than the career of this once obscure Turkish officer are the enormous changes brought about by his work in the condition and the international position of Egypt; they have made him a hero in the history of the Near East.”

• “Mohammed Ali — in place of a rebellious pasha - became its monarch , the unhappy country simply passed from Turk to Turk”

• “The first known ancestor of Muhammad Ali is his great - grandfather , Ibrahim Ağa , who is said to have been born in Konya , Anatolia , and to have settled in Edirne ( Adrianople ) during the latter half of the 17th century”

• “Even though Muhammad Ali was an Ottoman Turk”

• “we maintain that it would be utterly impossible for peace to be maintained between the two Turkish rivals.”

• “Sudan had been subjected to repeated waves of conquest begun in 1820 by the Turkish-Albanian ruler of Egypt, Muhammad Ali.”

• “the Ottoman Turk Muhammad Ali became ruler of Egypt”

• “the great Turkish governor of Egypt, Mehmet Ali Pasha”

• “includ- ing the Ottoman Turk, Khedive Muhammad Ali”

• “the Turkish-Albanian military leader Muhammad Ali Pasha”

Regards, Kabz15 (talk) 03:03, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

References

There is a 50 to 1 ratio of sources which call Muhammad Ali Albanian to sources which support a non-Albanian origin or leave the question open, so this shouldn't get more weight than it has in reality. For the most part, this really just seems to be the big obstacle which has stopped its inclusion and it's quite a real problem.Alltan (talk) 23:30, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Kabz15 You should be aware that in many older sources the term Turk is used interchangeably with the term "Ottoman Muslim", which in a part of Turkish historiography - the one which represents the official state doctrine - has been used been to claim that the "Turks" as the term was used in an Ottoman context were actually people of Turkic origin. SilentResident one of most exaggerated examples of this school of thought is the claim that because Mesih Pasha, related to the Paleologan dynasty, is sometimes described as a "Turk" this might just mean that the Palaiologan dynasth had Turkic origins. The IP cited from Fahmy (1988) that A letter written by Muhammad Ali: “since the Turks are members of our race and since they must be spared the trouble of being sent to remote and dangerous areas, it has become necessary to conscript around 4,000 men from Upper Egypt [to replace them] but the definition of "Turk" in the context of the era in Fahmy (1988) is Being a Turk, that is speaking Turkish and having one’s origins in Anatolia, Istanbul, Albania or other parts of the Ottoman world, was therefore enough for a man to be considered a candidate for a senior position in Mehmed Ali’s army even if he had originally been caught as a POW!. In 19th century Egypt, this term didn't have an ethnic or national meaning, but referred to Ottoman Muslims. In Marsot (1984) the ethnic distinctions in the Ottoman world are presented sharply: He was the son of Uthman Agha, the son of Ibrahim Agha, showing a military background for three generations. Beyond that, little is known about the family, or their origins. While historians have described them as being of Albanian origin, a family tradition believed that they might have been of Kuridsh stock, and come from a village, Ilic, eastern Anatolia, where they were horse traders. (..) That was pure myth (..) All the Albanians in the Ottoman forces in Egypt formed a bloc within the army that was distinct and separate from the rest of the men (..) Because of the tribal character of the Albanian troops and the demise of their superior officers, none but an Albanian could lead these troops and this, as well as his qualities and charisma, accounts for Muhammad Ali's swift rise in rank. The fact that Muhammad Ali was an Albanian, a member of a linguistic and ethnic minority group within the Ottoman family is significant. The editor who wants to list sources about a Turkish origin should engage with the subject from a historical perspective. The history of the Muhammad Ali dynasty is closely linked to its origins and the political strategy which they used in the context of their ancestry:

• History of the Coptic Orthodox People and the Church of Egypt: In 1913, Fuad made unsuccessful attempts to secure for himself the throne of Albania, which had obtained its independence from the Ottoman Empire a year earlier. At the time, Egypt and Sudan were ruled by his nephew, Abbas II, and the likelihood of Fuad becoming the monarch in his own country seemed remote. Given the fact that the Muhammad Ali Dynasty was of Albanian descent, encouraged Fuad to seek the Albanian throne.
• Foundations of Modernity: Human Agency and the Imperial StateDocuments produced by consuls based in Cairo during the period of 1880-1912 offer a rich picture of the way in which factions in the Ottoman Arnavut migrant communities operated in Egypt. (..) These Austrian reports, for instance, reveal that among the prominent Muslim Toskë families in Egypt (..) alliances were generally forged with the Khedive's family. In one of these internal Austro-Hungarian reports: Faik Konitza, based in Brussels, once highlighted the close relationship with select groups of Ottoman Albanian living in Egypt. For instance, the uncle of the Khedive, Ahmed Fuad Pasha, supported the publishing of Albanian-language journals, both in Arabic and Greek script, throught Egypt and the larger Mediterranean world. (Ottoman Refugees, 1878-1939: Migration in a Post-Imperial World) These issues cannot be bypassed by simply searching for sources which mentioned Muhammad Ali + Turk.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:46, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello Maleschreiber, thanks for the reply. The Fahmy source refers to a letter written by Muhammad Ali himself in his era around the time of his Sudan campaign, he mentions that the Turks are members of his race, in fact there is another source that corroborates what he said in his letter: Muhammad Ali , however , gave himself out to be a Turk ; but a Seljukian Turk The term “Seljukian Turk” doesn’t fall under the definition of “Turk” in the context you mentioned. Even so many of the sources that refer to him as a Turk are not from the era of Fahmy and some of these sources refer to him as an Ottoman Turk. Moreover, there are many sources that use the term “Turkish” rather than “Turk” so there is no reason so focus solely on the “Turk” sources. “These issues cannot be bypassed by simply searching for sources which mentioned Muhammad Ali + Turk”. Muhammad Ali himself said that he was a member of the Turk race in his letter, gave himself to be a Seljukian Turk and his son Ibrahim Pasha wrote in a document that Muhammad Ali’s father and grandfather left Konya for Kavala. Despite this being a Turkish source, English sources corroborate what Ibrahim Pasha had mentioned in the document: Mehmed Ali descended from a family, most probably of Turkish origin, that had emigrated from south-east Anatolia and settled in Kavala in southern Macedonia some time earlier. From the genealogist Montgomery-Massingberd: The first known ancestor of Muhammad Ali is his great - grandfather , Ibrahim Ağa , who is said to have been born in Konya , Anatolia , and to have settled in Edirne ( Adrianople ) during the latter half of the 17th century. As you can see the claims of Turkish origin for Muhammad Ali aren’t solely based on “Muhammad Ali + Turk” and the sources that mention him being a Turk or Turkish are indeed consistent.

Regards, Kabz15 (talk) 14:07, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

References

I wouldn't use a magazine published in 1916 as a source (WP:RS) and I think that it says something very different from what you quoted when read in full. I have given my opinion about the sources which are related to academic narratives produced in Turkey and this can be confirmed in such published. In Abu-Manneh (2010): In addition, once his rule in Egypt became stable many Turks and Turkish speaking Ottomans, "in hundreds and sometimes in thousands" from Anatolia and other provinces headed to Egypt seeking employment. This narrative is the total reversal of what the politics of Muhammad Ali's policy represent for Egypt. Aslan (2017) cites the Turkish Islamic Encyclopedia - in particular an article by Muhammed Hanefi Kutluoglu[50] (Aslan has written his name as Kurtuoglu). The same article has been cited in the past by a now banned account. The Islamic Encyclopedia is the main source about the "Konya story". It's a tertiary source and it doesn't meet WP:RS standards. Maybe you should read previous discussions as the arguments and the sources haven't changed. The issue of the historicity of this claim is significant because the Muhammad Ali dynasty had specific activity in relation to the Albanian community and identified itself publicly as Albanian. --Maleschreiber (talk) 15:30, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: the claim of a hypothetical descent from Anatolia in the 17th century is completely inconsistent with the hypothetical descent provided by the 1915 magazine: Muhammad Ali , however , gave himself out to be a Turk ; but a Seljukian Turk , descended from a family of that race which had come over from Anatolia into Thrace before the Ottoman conquest ; this may have been because he was unable to prove an Osmanli descent, or because he wished to escuse his subsequent defection from the Ottoman Empire. In current western scholarship those hypotheses are ignored, as highlighted by several reliable sources posted in this talk page. On the contrary, current western scholarship clarifies his strong ties with the Arnauts who elected him as their leader, and who brought him to power. – Βατο (talk) 15:48, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Im afraid Maleschreiber and Βατο have very valid points there. Please keep in mind that similar debates occured across Wikipedia in the distant past, especially for Byzantines who used to have a multi-cultural empire like the Ottomans did after them in these lands; often, "Byzantine" would be synonym of "Greek" even though it wasn't always the case. Like Maleschreiber has said: the term Turk is used interchangeably with the term "Ottoman Muslim", which in a part of Turkish historiography - the one which represents the official state doctrine - has been used been to claim that the "Turks" as the term was used in an Ottoman context were actually people of Turkic origin.. I understand if you feel that different scholarly viewpoints regarding the ethnicity of the person have to be mentioned, but I am afraid this is not possible, unless in a passing only. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:04, 15 June 2022 (UTC)