Talk:Movses Kaghankatvatsi

Movses

Movses of Kalankatuyk wrote the history of Caucasian Albania, so naturally the page falls into History of Azerbaijan category as well. Atabek 22:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, please elaborate by quote of him being Albanian. General consensus is he is Armenian, and unless your source satisfactorily exceptional on the topic, I disagree with keeping reference on him being "Albanian." I mean, he did after all write in the Armenian language, not in "Aluani" - pretty clear indication. Hetoum I 11:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

So what if he wrote in Armenian? Vladimir Nabokov wrote in English, was he ethnically English? This is from K.Trever, one of the top experts on Albania:

На армянском языке написан первый и единственный труд, посвященный истории Албании, - "История Албании" Моисея Каланкатуйского (Мосес Каланкатваци). Труд этот дошел до нас в нескольких списках и состоит из трех частей; он упоминается армянскими писателями XII--XIII вв. Автор, уроженец сел. Каланкатуйк в области Утик, был по происхождению либо утийцем (албаном), писавшим на армянском языке, либо армянином, что весьма возможно, так как в этот период Арцах и большая часть Утика были уже арменизованы.

К.В. Тревер. ОЧЕРКИ ПО ИСТОРИИ И КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ IV В. ДО Н. Э. - VII В. Н. Э. (источники и литература) -- изданиe Академии наук СССР, М.-Л., 1959

She says that, Movses, native of the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, was either uti (Albanian), who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian. Grandmaster 11:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

No Grandmaster, this is what she says.

Movses, native of the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, was either Uti (Albanian) who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian, which is very likely, because during at that time Artsakh and greater part of Utik were Armenianised.

Just another one of your selective quotations. VartanM 03:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

How it is selective, when I provided a full quote from the source? Grandmaster 05:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Many users here don't speak Russian, and by translating the only part where it suits your needs, is pov pushing. VartanM 06:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it’s not. WP:AGF. I had no time for translating the whole text, I only translated the relevant part. The rest has nothing to do with Movses. Most Armenian users speak Russian, so if I wanted to conceal any info I would not be providing the whole quote in the first place. Grandmaster 07:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

So by your logic him being very likely Armenian and not just maybe Armenian is not relevant. I know at least three active Armenian users who don't speak Russian. As for WP:AGF I did nothing wrong, only pointed out your mistake [1]. To avoid such unpleasant conversation in future, please translate the whole quotation. VartanM 07:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The source says that he was either of the two, and actually gives preference to his Albanian origin, as I have another quote where the same scholar calls him Albanian. I chose this one to show that there are 2 versions of his origin. I was short of time while posting here, and sometimes I don't even translate the Russian quotes, as Armenian users are mostly fluent in Russian. In the future I will provide full Russian translation for any quotes, since it is a problem for you. Grandmaster 07:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

How is a source where it says "He was either Uti (Albanian) who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian, which is very likely" gives preference to his Albanian origin? Is this the source your talking about? [2] The same scholar shows doubt about his Albanian origin and then says that his Armenian. I have no problem with your Russian sources, but some users not necessarily Armenian would probably have difficulty understanding it. VartanM 08:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Here:

Наиболее ценным источником является "История албанов" Моисея Каланкатваци, по-видимому, албана по происхождению, труд которого дошел до нас на армянском языке; он написал в VII в. две первые книги этой хроники, третья же принадлежит перу другого автора, жившего в X в.

Source: К ВОПРОСУ О КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ (доклад на XXV Международном конгрессе востоковедов, 1960 год), К.В.ТРЕВЕР, член-корр. АН СССР

The most valuable source is History of Albanians of Moses Kalankatvatsi, apparently Albanian by origin, whose work survived to our days in Armenian, he wrote in VII century the first 2 books of this chronicle, and third one was written by another author, who lived in X century. Grandmaster 10:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

MarshalBagramyan, your last edit has refrence to non-neutral source while you have reverted neutral source. --Dacy69 21:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Marshall, Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia in Armenian language is something most people are unable to verify. Great Soviet Encyclopedia is a lot better, at least it is available for everyone to check. Why don't you use reliable third party sources and why did you delete references to Minorsky and Trever, who are a lot more reliable than your source? Vladimir Minorsky is a top international expert in the ancient history of the region, you cannot simply delete a reference to him. Grandmaster 05:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

You have a convoluted understanding of what a third party source is (as the SAE obviously is, whether it's written in Armenian or not), and there is no such rule, as I have been explaining this to you for one year now yet you have been unable to understand this, that stipulates that we only stick with them.

I don't see the problem either: they don't contradict one another although Minorsky cleverly plays it safe with his wording by not going into the matter of his identity by mentioning only location and language. In any case, it says Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, not the Great Armenian Encyclopedia. You can twist the rules all you like as you have for all this time you have been on Wikipedia by maintaining your faux "third-party" line every time you hear something you don't like in a certain source, but this has become a nauseating habit of you constantly suppressing sources strictly because of the ethnic basis of the authors, and never on the content of what they say. --Marshal Bagramyan 19:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

GM, Trever deserves much more corroborating sources to bear inclusion. Currently, a Google search on him shows him being quoted all over by Azeri websites [3]. Some even show that he is quoting Farida Mamedova and other Azeri sources. --Marshal Bagramyan 17:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

She does not quote Mamedova because her article was written in 1960s. And Armenian origin is not prevailing opinion, Minorsky does not call Movses Armenian, and he was one of the top experts on the region. Camilla Trever is one of the leading Russian specialists on Albania, and you cannot simply remove an alternative opinion from the article just because you don't like it. Grandmaster 19:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

MarshalBagramyan, good job on providing neutral sources on Movses being possibly Armenian, out of which 2 are Armenian sources, but why would you delete the neutral source on him being possibly Albanian. There is nothing wrong with presenting the evidence alleging that he might have been both and including that in the article. It's not like he's Serzh Sarkissian or somebody alike whose Armenian background can't be contested. The guy has lived and wrote very long time ago.

I would appreciate if we could include both version as before. Ehud 19:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Fringe opinions are allowed to be discarded. In either case, Trever needs to work on her consistency, as she offers differing opinions on Kaghankatvati's ethnicity from one publication to another. --Marshal Bagramyan 22:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Bagramyan, according to Minorsky, indeed an expert on regional history, Kalankatuatsi lived in Caucasian Albania, hence was a Caucasian Albanian historian who wrote in Armenian. Similarly, William Saroyan is an American writer. Atabek 01:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

That argument makes no sense whatsoever. If you live in one country you don't necessarily have to be from that country. VartanM 03:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Please explain why opinion of Trever and Minorsky is fringe and why it was deleted from the article? Kamilla Trever was a notable Russian scholar, academician, corresponding member of Russian Academy of Sciences and historian with international reputation. Here’s her profile from the official website of the Russian Academy of Sciences: [4] Her work was praised by international experts. For example, David M. Lang wrote:

Particularly valuable is Kamilla Trever's Ocherki po istorii i kulture Kavkazskoi Albanii (1959).

David M. Lang. Reviewed Work(s): The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci. by Movses Dasxuranci; C. J. F. Dowsett. Slavic Review, Vol. 22, No. 1. (Mar., 1963), p. 136.

So why the opinion of Trever should be discarded and completely removed from the article? The same with Minorsky, a scholar with international fame. --Grandmaster 10:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't how many times we have to repeat this. Trever maintains both positions, (she changed her mind) so did Minorsky. Do you have any authors who claim him to be Albanian and not Armenian? If yes quote them please. On the other hand, most sources claim him to be an Armenian. Heres one more: The Second Russian Attack on Constantinople by A. A. Vasiliev, Dumbarton Oaks Papers, Vol. 6. (1951) p.181. You won't achieve anything by reporting every single edit done by user:MarshallBagramyan. As he said to you, propose something reasonable but there is no way in the world you will present a minority and majority position as equally valid.VartanM 15:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

You don’t know what majority and minority views are, this should be sourced info. Check this: [5] You should attribute views to sources making a certain claim. But removing opinion of K.Trever and V.Minorsky from the article is not an option. Here’s another quote from Trever, where she says Movses was Albanian:

Наиболее ценным источником является "История албанов" Моисея Каланкатваци, по-видимому, албана по происхождению, труд которого дошел до нас на армянском языке; он написал в VII в. две первые книги этой хроники, третья же принадлежит перу другого автора, жившего в X в.

Source: К ВОПРОСУ О КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ (доклад на XXV Международном конгрессе востоковедов, 1960 год), К.В.ТРЕВЕР, член-корр. АН СССР

The most valuable source is History of Albanians of Moses Kalankatvatsi, apparently Albanian by origin, whose work survived to our days in Armenian, he wrote in VII century the first 2 books of this chronicle, and third one was written by another author, who lived in X century.

Here’s the quote from Georgian scholar Zaza Aleksidze:

The Albanian historian Moses Kalankatyatsi's (Moses Daskhurantsi) work is available in a 10th c. Armenian version. The author wrote his work in the 7th c. and he names the nations that had their own script at that time and mentions Albanian language among them. [6]

--Grandmaster 06:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I readded info on possible Albanian origin of Movses, as well as info from Minorsky, Trever, etc. I don’t think there should be any problems with presenting all opinions existing in the scholarly circles. Grandmaster 10:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Armenian

LOL, Welcome back Hetoum jan, I think you went overboard with the sources. Did you spend your vacation traveling across the globe and visiting the libraries? :) --VartanM 01:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Finally rewrote this article to accurately reflect on this person in detail and actually wrote on something other than about the silly notion of him being Albanian.

I did actually go overboard since some people apparently questioned the Armenian identity of this individual. I need not repeat what was said about this obscure Trever. On this goofy Zaza fella. He does the exact same thing calls him Armenian and Albanian in the same work - consistency please. Not to mention the more serious problem of this person calling Kirakos Gandzaketsi and Gosh as "Caucasian Albanians."

Even Turkish sources call him Armenian. None of the sources you provided fall in under Wikipedia exceptional claim-source criteria. Best information on this author was Hacikyan on classical armenian authors, discussing this individual in detail. If Anyone here is uncertain of this individual's ethnic identity, looking at a few books should easily wield 40-60 more sources calling him Armenian.Hetoum I 01:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

There are sources which claim alternative opinion and you does not have right to remove them. Wikipedia should include various versions. So, I rv back, you are welcome to add your sources but don't remove other sources.--Dacy69 16:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Dacy your removal of sourced information was uncalled for. The same argument you used for the your revert is applied to you. Instead of removing and reverting the article you should add the information you think Hetoum left out. Hetoum spent 2 hours working on this article you should respect that instead of blindly reverting. You are welcome to add your sources but don't remove other sources. --VartanM 16:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

To add to Vartan M - At this point what you are doing is no longer removal of sourced information but wholesale vandalism. The article was completely re-written, making the topic more understandable. I even added an image, which you took out blindly

As for your sources, they lack serious credibility, have no base or explanation for their conclusion and represent only 2 weird conclusions opposed to over 60. At this point it is not even a fringe point. There is no "2 sides" to represent equally and fairly. There are 2 morons calling an Armenian manuscript's author "Albanian" without any base. I am sure I can find some sources that say Jessica Biel is a lesbian, or Dennis Rodman is really a shemale, but there is a reason why those things do not find their way into Wikipedia as sources. I am sure you have been on Wiki long enough to understand exceptional and verifiable sources. Do you see where I am going with this?Hetoum I 18:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

With such unacademic comment you can go wherever you want. It was first you, who removed sourced information. So, you should add your source to what we had before you vandalized page. But I am not going to start a game - who first, who second. After weekend I am going to add back removed information and rephrase certain part of the article to accomodate both views.--Dacy69 21:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The date of creating fairy tales on this page will not make a difference, whether over the weekend or Monday. As for vandalism, here is a definition: [7] notice about 20 sources disappearing. If you actually find reliable sources as to why authorship of an Armenian manuscript should be "Caucasian Albanian" I will be willing to talk. Until then, fringe opinions of 2 obscure persons is undue weight, especially since even Turkish scholars consider him Armenian. There are no 2 views, no arguments, just disruptions on your part.Hetoum I 02:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC) 2 sources are reliable and they are not obscure by no means. And pls. learn to have decent discussion and then we will talk.--Dacy69 20:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

lol, they don't even talk about where he got his name from or anything. Like I said, I can find a source calling Jessica Biel a lesbian or someone else a shemale, but there is a reason these are not used as sources. I can find a "source" to back anything I want to say, but it is not necessarily true.Hetoum I 21:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Hetoum don't remove sources without justification, also Minorsky does not say that Movses Kalankatuaci was Armenian. You also removed another reference in your edit. Kalankatuaci, as the title of his book reflects, was Albanian historian, so current version is actually a compromise. Atabek 11:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Hetoum, there’s no justification for deletion of verifiable info, stop doing that. Grandmaster 14:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster and Atabek, As mentioned before K.V Trever is self contradictory. She calls him Armenian in one work then Albanina in other. The other source is undue waight, I can provide another 20 or so sources that call him Armenian, it will turn this article into a joke as a result. VartanM 15:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Trever does not call him Armenian, she only says that he could be either Armenian or Albanian, and I can provide tons of Azeri sources to balance the Armenian sources that you included into this article as references. We should include all the existing scholarly views, how come that Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia is not undue weight, while such well known expert on Albania as Zaza Aleksidze is? Stop deleting sourced info, including Minorsky, another prominent expert. Grandmaster 17:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Here is a quote by Trever which Grandmaster provided and somehow forgot to translate the bolded part, and later called it irrelevant.

К.В. Тревер. ОЧЕРКИ ПО ИСТОРИИ И КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ IV В. ДО Н. Э. - VII В. Н. Э. (источники и литература) -- изданиe Академии наук СССР, М.-Л., 1959

Movses, native of the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, was either Uti (Albanian) who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian, which is very likely, because during at that time Artsakh and greater part of Utik were Armenianised.

Now, How are we suppose to add that as Trever calls him Albanian? She shows doubt and uncertainty and Grandmaster insist that she maintains that Movses was undoubtedly Albanian. Considering the 20 sources that call him Armenian and Trever whom shows doubt It is safe to say that She doesn't know what shes talking about.

Zaza Aleksidze source added by Grandmaster and Atabek as an states

""The Albanian historian Moses Kalankatyatsi's (Moses Daskhurantsi) work is available in a 10th c. Armenian version. The author wrote his work in the 7th c. and he names the nations that had their own script at that time and mentions Albanian language among them."

No mention of his ethnicity, one can be an Albanian historian and still be ethnically Armenian. Hetoum's version clearly takes this into a consideration and calls him indigenous Armenian historian of Caucasian Albania.

Atabek and Grandmaster are in violation of the Armenia-Azerbaijan2 remedies and are pushing their point of view. VartanM 18:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Minorsky calls it an Armenian source written in Armenian. Where is there room for in his opinion to state he was not Armenian? So far there is no reason to call him Albanian when even Turkish authorship calls him Armenian. I just gave 20 sources, and I could give 40 more. Grandmaster, don't you remember the exceptional claims source rule?Hetoum I 03:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Trever says that he could be either of the two, so we should include her alternative opinion. Aleksidze also calls him Albanian (not Armenian). Minorsky calls him indegenous historian of Albania (not Armenian). All those opinions should be reflected in the articles, and these sources cannot be suppressed. Grandmaster 09:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I have a better chance in including Trever as a source that calls him Armenian then you do calling him Albanian. She clearly gives preference to his Armenian ethnicity and not the other way around. Aleksidze and Minorsky call him Albanian historian and their not talking about his ethnicity. One can be a Russian historian and be an Armenian, One can be an American writer and be an Armenian, One can be .... He was Armenian historian of Caucasian Albania. --VartanM 15:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion of Trever is OR. pls. refrain from removing sourced info.--Dacy69 14:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC) Dacy, this is clearly a violation of parole on you part as well as misrepresenting the sources. Trever said one or the other, and you transformed this into O.R.Hetoum I 05:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you really have 19 sources that all say he was of Armenian ethnicity? And two disputed sources that say he was Albanian? If that is not an excercise in making Wikipedia an ethnic battleground then I don't know what is. It may be better to simply not mention the person's ethnicity if it is in doubt. The article looks frankly silly with that many sources for his ethnicity and almost no other content. In general, I would normally say that it is not necessarily original research to prefer to use one source over another. However, when sources give contradictory information it is usually not possible for editors to determine on their own which one is "correct." If possible, additional sources should be located. But it seems like that has already been done. I am rapidly losing my patience with every other edit war being about whether some person is an ethnic this or an ethnic that. Work out a compromise or else. Thatcher131 14:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Thatcher the two sources being added for his supposed Albanian origin are misused. Here is why. K.V Trever calls him Albanian or Armenian which is very likely. Aleksidze isn't talking about his ethnicity, only calls him Caucasian Albanian historian. No one disputes that he was Caucasian Albanian historian. Like I said before I have a better argument to add Trever to the 20+ sources then Grandmaster for an alternative view. VartanM 17:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of Wikipedia is to give as much/broader information as possible (of course, I know about undue weihgt), especially about the controversial issue. You and HetoumI behaviour here, insulting comments, constant removal of information do not bring us to consensus. The issue is disputable among historians and should be reflected in the article. If you are sure that so plenty evidences of Movses ethnicitythen ea reader perhaps will judge in the same way but we should give him an option.--Dacy69 18:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Dacy,can you show me where I left an insulting comment? please AGF, Like I explained before the two sources are not reliable. First one calls him most likely Armenian the second says nothing about his ethnicity. Exceptional claims, must be accompanied by exceptional sources. VartanM 19:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I was away from my comp from a couiple of days. In terms of insulting comments it was HetoumI (see above). Other things applies to you as well. Other issues are addressed below--Dacy69 15:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Accusing others of insulting when they did no such thing is an assumption of bad faith. As for the rest please see the discussion below. VartanM 16:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

And, according to you - this is normal language for discussion calling serious scholars morons - [8]--Dacy69 19:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Dacy, you are making a personal attack against me based on what Hetoum said. Please cease your baseless accusations against me and assume good faith. Discuss the subject not the contributer or just wait for an outside opinion just like Grandmaster and I are doing. VartanM 01:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Sources about origin

The problem that we have here is that certain users delete sources that suggest that this historian could be Caucasian Albanian by ethnic origin. Clearly, there’s no consensus among the scholars that he was ethnic Armenian. Vladimir Minorsky calls him “indigenous historian of ' Albania”. See the quote:

The work of the indigenous historian of “Albania”, Moses Kalankatvats'i, who wrote in Armenian (10th century), contains many important data, but his obscure hints and sudden breaks in the main thread are often exasperating.

V. Minorsky. Caucasica IV. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 15, No. 3. (1953), pp. 504-529.

Another quote is from Kamilla Trever, a notable Russian scholar, academician, corresponding member of Russian Academy of Sciences and historian with international reputation. Here’s her profile from the official website of the Russian Academy of Sciences: [9] Her work was praised by international experts. For example, David M. Lang wrote:

Particularly valuable is Kamilla Trever's Ocherki po istorii i kulture Kavkazskoi Albanii (1959).

David M. Lang. Reviewed Work(s): The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci. by Movses Dasxuranci; C. J. F. Dowsett. Slavic Review, Vol. 22, No. 1. (Mar., 1963), p. 136.

This is what she says in the work, praised by professor Lang:

На армянском языке написан первый и единственный труд, посвященный истории Албании, - "История Албании" Моисея Каланкатуйского (Мосес Каланкатваци). Труд этот дошел до нас в нескольких списках и состоит из трех частей; он упоминается армянскими писателями XII--XIII вв. Автор, уроженец сел. Каланкатуйк в области Утик, был по происхождению либо утийцем (албаном), писавшим на армянском языке, либо армянином, что весьма возможно, так как в этот период Арцах и большая часть Утика были уже арменизованы.

К.В. Тревер. ОЧЕРКИ ПО ИСТОРИИ И КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ IV В. ДО Н. Э. - VII В. Н. Э. (источники и литература) -- изданиe Академии наук СССР, М.-Л., 1959

Translation:

First and only work about the history of Caucasian Albania – History of Albania by Movses of Kalankatuyk – is written in the Armenian language. This work survived to our days in several manuscripts and consists of 3 parts; it is mentioned by Armenian writers of 12 – 13th century. The author, native of the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, was either uti (Albanian), who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian, which is quite possible, as at that period Artsakh and greater part of Utik were already Armenianised.

In another source she says:

Наиболее ценным источником является "История албанов" Моисея Каланкатваци, по-видимому, албана по происхождению, труд которого дошел до нас на армянском языке; он написал в VII в. две первые книги этой хроники, третья же принадлежит перу другого автора, жившего в X в.

К ВОПРОСУ О КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ (доклад на XXV Международном конгрессе востоковедов, 1960 год), К.В.ТРЕВЕР, член-корр. АН СССР

The most valuable source is History of Albanians of Moses Kalankatvatsi, apparently Albanian by origin, whose work survived to our days in Armenian, he wrote in VII century the first 2 books of this chronicle, and third one was written by another author, who lived in X century.

And this is the quote from Georgian scholar Zaza Aleksidze, who discovered a unique Albanian written source in Sinai:

The Albanian historian Moses Kalankatyatsi's (Moses Daskhurantsi) work is available in a 10th c. Armenian version. The author wrote his work in the 7th c. and he names the nations that had their own script at that time and mentions Albanian language among them. [10]

All those sources suggest that Movses could be ethnic Albanian by origin. Me and Dacy do not propose to delete Armenian version, we only suggest to mention alternative opinions as well.

Grandmaster 10:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

"Based on facts and documents, Caucasian Albania's history, as well, was not written by local historians and writers. This country's history was written down by Armenian historians and authors". Enayat Ollah Reza, "Azerbaijan and Aran", Tehran, 1981, p. 133. All other quotations seems to be just point of views of authors not documentally approved. Andranikpasha 12:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm really getting tired of repeating myself. Minorsky calls him indigenous historian of Caucasian Albania not ethnically Albanian, Hetoums current version takes this and the 20 sources that call him Armenian into consideration and calls him indigenous Armenian historian of Caucasian Albania.

K.V. Trever in her first work calls him not "quite possible" but very likely, Grandmaster please we already been thru this, at first you didn't translate that part because it was irrelevant now your changing words. The second source calls him "по-видимому" (looks like to be) Albanian. again she shows doubt and considering the stagering amount of sources that say otherwise this is undue weight.

Aleksidze calls him Albanian historian which he was. No mention of his ethnicity. VartanM 16:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

"весьма возможно" translates as "quite possible". Russian is my second native language, I was born in the USSR. As for the rest, I'm waiting for Thatcher's comments. Grandmaster 04:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

That still shows doubt and considering the rest of the sources it becomes undue weight. My argument that I have a better chance on adding Trever to the 20 sources who call him Armenian still stands. Russian was my second language so I'm allowed to make mistakes. I was also born in the USSR comrade. Lets wait for Thatcher then. VartanM 05:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Grandmaster 05:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok. :) VartanM 05:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

20 references to prove a 22-word opening paragraph. Even allowing for Wikipedia faggotry, that one MUST be a record! I've captured it for the posterity and the lulz. Meowy 22:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

comments on current dispute

Based on the current article and talk (i.e. I havent dug through the article history), very little appears to be known about this author, and he is primarily notable for working on a single book. My initial reaction is that an article about the book is far more important the author, and the authorship is only relevant in context of the book. And yet this article doesnt even mention the real name of the book, a google search for "History of the Country of Albania" turns up nothing, and I had to dig around in WorldCat [11][12] to find OCLC 165717957. Is that a recent print of the book in question? I have taken the guts of this article over to The History of the Country of Albania so editors familiar with this topic can expand on the importance of this work.

As a general comment on that article, I think it is critical to mention only undisputed facts in the intro to an article. Currently this article doesnt give the reader any assurance what his name is, and his ethnicity is in question, and there are 19 references in lots of languages to justify the first sentence. How is any reader supposed to verify the first sentence is factual? My first thought was that this article should be taken to Afd as it consists entirely of academic musing without any real established facts. Based on the current article, I doubt that we can properly write a biography of the author. A redirect to the book would probably do the trick, but I digress...

With regard to the dispute over the authors ethnicity, I think the introduction should only say .. from the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, but it could also say ... of either Armenian or Albanian ethnicity. Both of those statements can be attributed to many sources, and ideally we can find one English source that covers it. Then, in a section of the article, the ethnicity debate can be given properly with any and all opinions by scholars provided, with quotes and translations as necessary. John Vandenberg 22:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason to say anything about an Albanian ethnicity. The author has an Armenian name and wrote in Armenian.- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 23:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

There are no sources that call him Albanian, One calls him "either Albanian or Armenian, which is very likely". The other says nothing about his ethnicity. It only calls him "Albanian historian", which is a fact and no one disputes that he was a historian of Albania. VartanM 23:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

We cannot supress the info about his possible Albanian ethnicity. Trever says that he could be either Albanian or Armenian, i.e. his Armenian origin is not a proven fact, but just one of theories, and Aleksidze says that he was Albanian. Minorsky referes to him as "indigenous historian of “Albania”". I don't think its is right that these sources are ignored. Grandmaster 04:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

We can if its a undue weight. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. 1 out of 20 sources calls him maybe Albanian and gives a preference to him being Armenian. Aleksidze calls him Albanian historian not Albanian, same as Monorsky. VartanM 05:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

You don't know what the most sources say. Claims of consensus should be supported by sources. See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Claims_of_consensus. Grandmaster 06:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

If you're questioning the sources, you can ask Hetoum to provide quotes. The claim is supported by 20 sources, and I believe Hetoum said that he can provide more if you needed. The only source that calls him maybe Albanian is Trever and she gives preference to him being Armenian. I have a better argument to include the source to support him being Armenian. VartanM 17:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

She does not give preference to the Armenian version, on the contrary, in another work she calls him an Albanian scholar. And I don't say that Armenian version should not be included, I just say that the alternative scholarly versions should not be suppressed. Grandmaster 04:22, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

She clearly says his most likely Armenian. As for the other work, it only shows how inconsistent and uninformed about the subject she is. There is no Armenian version, there is one version that calls him Armenian and one confused scholar who can't seem to make up her mind about his ethnicity. Tell me that isn't undue weight. VartanM 03:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

She does not say that he was "most likely" Armenian. She says that he could be Armenian too. And she was one of the leading experts on Albania. How could she be "uninformed" if her "Ocherki" to this day are considered one of the best sources on Albania? Also, another top expert, Minorsky, calls Movses indigenous scholar (not Armenian or Albanian), so you cannot say that there's a consensus on considering him Armenian. Grandmaster 04:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

She says Albanian or Armenian which is quite possible, because Artsakh and most of Utik were Armenianized during in that perioud. The article already takes Minorsky into consideration and mentions that he was an indigenous historian of Caucasian Albania. VartanM 05:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

But she also says that he could be Albanian, and that part is ignored. And Minorsky is distorted, he never calls Movses "indigenous Armenian historian", he called him simply "indigenous historian". Misquoting the sources is not acceptable. Grandmaster 06:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The prominent historian of Caucasus V.A. Kuznetsov also calls him an Armenian historian: "..., according to Armenian historian Movses Kaghankatvatsi, ..."// "А в конце 20-х годов VIII века, по сообщению армянского историка Мовсеса Каганкатваци, арабы дважды прошли через Абхазию, форсировали Клухорский перевал и нанесли хазарам неожиданные удары с фланга."/ В.А. Кузнецов, В верховьях Большого Зеленчука, Москва, "Искусство", 1977, p. 12 Andranikpasha 11:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not denying that there are sources that consider him to be Armenian, I only propose to add alternative version of Caucasian Albanian origin. It exists, and it should be reflected as well. Grandmaster 12:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The sources marked by you above are not calling him a historian "of Caucasian Albanian origin". He can be called a hisorian of Albania, its never means he had Albanian origin (f.e. Glinka was a historian of Armenia, but not a historian of Armenian origin). We need reliable sources which prefer the version (if it exists) of his "Albanian origin".Andranikpasha 13:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't exist. It's not even a minority view, such a view simply doesn't exist.- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 14:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

How so? Did you read Trever, who said that the author could be an "uti (Albanian), who wrote in Armenian"? Then how come it does not exist? Grandmaster 10:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I missed this. So we have a plethora of sources confirming the obvious, that he was Armenian. We have one, maybe two that say he was Armenian but maybe could have been an Armenianized C.Albanian and we have none that say he was C.Albanian. At best, we can mention somewhere in the body of the article, definitely not in the lead that so on so on guy believes that he was Armenian leaving the possibility that he could have been an Armenainized C.Albanian.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 22:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's another one for you. It is written by Cyril Toumanoff and says:

Caucasian Albania (Aluank') became Armenianized early in its history, though its language and script differed from those of Armenia, and the Armenian work, for the timely translation of which the world of scholarship is in C. J. F. Dowsett's debt, is by and about Albanians.

Cyril Toumanoff. Review of The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci by C. J. F. Dowsett; Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 25, No. 1/3. (1962), pp. 364-366.

Note the last sentence, it says that the work is "by and about Albanians", i.e. it is written by Albanians. Grandmaster 06:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

It is something like this: "Based on facts and documents, Caucasian Albania's history, as well, was not written by local historians and writers. This country's history was written down by Armenian historians and authors". Enayat Ollah Reza, "Azerbaijan and Aran", Tehran, 1981, p. 133. A common, unrelevant text which even didnt use the name of the person (the topic)... Andranikpasha 11:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The text quoted by you does not mention any particular book and is very ambiguous, while Toumanoff clearly says that History of Albania is written by Albanians. Grandmaster 12:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Albanians? Can you mark just 2 of these Albanians (just for interest)! Andranikpasha 13:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The book "The History of the Country of Albania" more than likely has two authors, both of whom little is known. John Vandenberg 00:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

If any nation had its own historians, its amazing why they were only two (with Armenian names) and both of whom little is known. If there were Albanian historians surely there must exist a tradition of Albanian historiography (basis, style, any quotations in the foreign historical books of that time), previous and next generations of historians. Even Kaghankatvatsi didnt cite any (previous) Albanian historian. And anyways it is commonly accepted by scolars that both Movsese's were the same person (Movses_Kaghankatvatsi). Andranikpasha 09:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It is commonly accepted that the book was written by two people who lived in different times. And whether there were other Albanian historians or not is irrelevant, alternative opinion about the ethnic origin of Moses of Kalankatuyk needs to be reflected in the article as well. Grandmaster 12:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Citations

21 citations on Movses's Armenian ancestry?! Good grief!--The Diamond Apex (talk) 15:08, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I know. And from such relevant works as Two-Tiered Relexification in Yiddish.

At least our resident patriot factions do not attempt to hide the traces when they've had their fun with an article, it makes it easier to spot what is broken. I have tried to fix it. --dab (𒁳) 12:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Movses Kaghankatvatsi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Well, we finally cleaned it up to talk about Armenian-ness as well controversy over name, which is a big step, considering the confusion over the name. However, we still need more about what he wrote.Hetoum I 04:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 04:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 00:33, 30 April 2016 (UTC)