Talk:Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate

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A fact from Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 November 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate, a precursor of the modern state of Lebanon, was created in the aftermath of the 1860 massacre where thousands of Christians were killed by the Druze?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/November.

Wikipedia

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

No consensus, 12 October 2011, from Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate to [[Sanjak of Lebanon]], see discussion.
No consensus, 21 April 2013, from Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate to [[Mutasarrifiyya of Mount Lebanon]], see discussion.

Opening heading

"Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate" -Llc ? Takabeg (talk) 23:01, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Sanjak of Lebanon" -Llc 118

"Sanjak" and "Mutasarrifate" are seemingly synonymous, since the sanjaks were ruled by a mutasarrif.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 04:04, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate → Sanjak of Lebanon – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC) per the search results (and considerations) above.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 04:04, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I'm not crazy about the current title but the proposal is weaker for reasons of accuracy. First, the area of the entity was only Mount Lebanon ("Lebanon" in shorthand but not today's Lebanon; also note the Arabic and Turkish names) and, second, the entity was not strictly a sanjak inter pares. It had greater autonomy and a different status than other Ottoman sanjaks (also note the Arabic and Turkish names). Sources sloppily use sanjak but, just as we use "governorate" for the subdivisions of Iraq and "voivodeship" for the subdivisions of Poland even though the name "province" is more common in each case, we should strive for accuracy here as well. Google worshipers also note alternate spellings of "Mutasarrifiat", "Moutasarrifiat", "Mutasarifiya", and "Mutasarrifiyya" (this one alone has 850 Google book hits). — AjaxSmack 00:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. There's a small nuance between the turkish terms Miitesarriflik and Sanjak. Sanjak rulers represented the Vali and corresponded with the Ottoman government through him whereas Mutasarrifs of semi-independent units such as Lebanon or Cyprus corresponded directly to the ministry of interior. The title _as it is_ is more accurate, regardless of the Google search results. Please note the alternate spellings of Mutassrifiate as pointed out by Ajax (Mutesarrif, Mutasarrifiyya...), also check out the native Arabic and Turkish names which concur with the current title. Eli + 10:39, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note 1: Ar.Wikipedia entry Note 2: A Handbook of Asia Minor Note 3: Native language search results Note 4: online reference Eli + 10:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Map ?

A map of the Mutsarifate would help immensely, particularly one that compares it with the current borders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.86.33.61 (talk) 15:48, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. First step done. Oncenawhile (talk) 11:22, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COMMONNAME

Re the above debate about names, the commonname in English is still Sanjak.

The difference between the two words is technical, and relates to the 1864 Vilayet law when the rank of Mutasarrıf was first established (instead of Sanjak-bey). At that point, Vilayets replaced Eyalets and Mutasarrıfates replaced Sanjaks. Around the same time, some new districts were formed, such as this one in Mount Lebanon. So it was technically a Mutasarrifate, but in English most continued to use the older term Sanjak. Oncenawhile (talk) 09:14, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See discussion at Talk:Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:35, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

this has been discussed earlier, historical names will not be compromised for the sake of easier spelling. also see Talk:Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem Eli + 14:48, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The key issue here is WP:COMMONNAME. Oncenawhile (talk) 12:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mutasarrifate vs Sanjak

Please see the ongoing discussion at Talk:Mutasarrifate_of_Jerusalem#In_1882_the_Ottomans_called_it_a_Sanjak.....

These are the only two "Mutasarrifate" articles in wikipedia, so we should try to agree the Mutasarrifate vs Sanjak question together. The sources brought in these discussions suggest that Mutasarrifate was simply an informal name for a Sanjak.

Oncenawhile (talk) 20:15, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Beirut Vilayet and the Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate

What was the relationship between the Beirut Vilayet and the Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate? Were they two different entities or were the Mount Lebanon Mutasarrifate a part of the Beirut Vilayet? --Vitzque (talk) 07:41, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

council composition

The text now says "The mutasarrıf was to be assisted by an administrative council of twelve members from the various religious communities in Lebanon. Each of the six religious groups inhabiting the Lebanon (Maronites, Druzes, Sunni, Shi’a, Greek Orthodox and Melkite) elected two members to the council" and this is confirmed by one of the sources in the footnote, but in Kamal S. Salibi, The modern history of Lebanon, 1965, p. 110 I found another distribution over the sects, which makes more sense : 4 Maronites, 3 Druze, 2 Greek Orthodox, 1 Greek Catholic, 1 Sunnite and 1 Shi'ite.----Bancki (talk) 19:01, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified (February 2018)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:21, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

the Mutasarrifs

I have reinstated the section which deals with the mutasarrifs of ML. it was removed a year ago without explanation.

The governors' section is no longer needed. I'm not sure why it was added in the first place. Whatsupkarren (talk) 11:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]