Talk:Mordhau (weaponry)

Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being by another. It does not apply to combat. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       02:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

yes, well, that's still what the move is called, for some reason or other. Fwiiw, Forgeng et al. (the English language glossary of German school terms) have "Murder-Stroke". dab (𒁳) 09:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Well then. Could someone reimplement it?Rex 10:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

There was a time, before "political correctness" and the modern definition of "murder", when it meant killing someone suddenly with an unexpected blow or from concealment, lawfully or unlawfully, usually in the sense of military combat. Compare "murder holes" which would be somewhat difficult to use to commit a murder in the modern sense of the word. Regardless, and despite Stephen Colbert's claim that Wikipedia is a bastion of "truthiness", we don't vote on the facts; the technique is called a murder-stroke whether you like it or not. Voicing your outrage isn't going to change it unless you have a time machine and the ability to be very persuasive. 12.22.250.4 21:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I take some degree of issue with another facet of the translation: "Mordhau, alternatively Mortschlag or Mordstreich (Ger., lit., "murder-strike", "murder-impact", "murder-caper", respectively)". Strike is a bit too controlled to represent "hauen", although it would be a good translation for "schlag". Hauen is more like "to bash" or "to pound", and, at least on http://dict.leo.org, "to strike" is a direct translation for "schlagen". Lastly, "caper" seems like an odd term for a combat move (if it was historically used in English, then I would defer to someone versed in the subject (being myself only versed in German language, with only a cursory knowledge of German history)). "Streichen" is more closely translated as "strike" as well...for example, in English: "let that be stricken from the record"...etymologically comes from "streichen". I won't personally edit the entry (except that Mort is not German, but Latin...changing the "t" to "d"), but I would encourage anyone reviewing this article to do so at their discretion, with consultation of a proper English-German dictionary. However, Mord is most definitely "murder", and in the same context as "murderhole", and I thusly concur with the previous post's criticism of the word mincing. The etymology of the word supports its use in this context, despite that the capital crime of the same name is unrelated to warfare or swordsmanship. 74.7.55.66 (talk) 22:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hau is consistently translated as cut or strike by Forgeng, Tobler, and Svard & Lindhold. It's most common use in German fechtbuch is for basic cutting attacks with the edge of the sword. Clearly "bash" and "pound" are very poor translations for cutting actions with the edge of the sword. I agree that hau doesn't translate real well into English. Also is the dictionary you cite a modern German to English dictionary? Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 07:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe "hau" would be best translated as the common use of an axe, a "chop", rather than the "cut" more associated with swords or knives. I'm basing this on a similarity between the German "hauen" and the Swedish "hugga", an acceptable translation of "hauen". I leave the decision of whether this is a solid enough base for translation to someone more used to Wiki policy. 90.230.157.182 (talk) 20:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Description of the technique

The article describes it thus:

...hitting the opponent with the pommel, essentially using the sword as a mace.

However, the online source cited and the Wikipedia articles on Wallerstein and the German school seem to indicate that this attack form could use either the pommel or the quillions, not just the pommel. Neither source specifically uses the mace as an analogy. While I can see the analogy of pommel to mace, wouldn't the placement of the pommel, the restricted leverage and interference of the quillions make the staff a more apt analogy? The quillions would be used somewhat more like a hammer or pick, due to the concentration of energy on a smaller point of impact offset from the "haft" of the weapon. 12.22.250.4 21:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Hand injury

Wouldn't the impact a blow like that cut the hand, regardless of the gloves/gauntlets worn? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.195.186.31 (talk) 09:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't try it with no gloves and a sharp sword. But with decent gloves and a tight grip, it shouldn't be a problem. In addition, these longswords used for armoured combat probably weren't very sharp, since there is no application of cuts, just stabs. dab (𒁳) 08:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I assume you're asking if a person would injure their own hand when they grab the sword by the blade and perform a mordhau. The answer is that is is unlikely even with a sharp sword. I have "experimented" with this myself to a limited extent. Without a slicing motion a sharp blade simply will not do much. Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 16:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

yes, but the emphasis is on "limited extent". You wouldn't want to try this in a free fight. dab (𒁳) 16:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually I would. The "limited extent" refers to the fact that I used a razor sharp knife because I didn't have a sharp sword to use instead. Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 23:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

that's cool. I would wear gauntlets. dab (𒁳) 08:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

In fact, the swords were not so sharp at this time. They were more like a wedge or an axe. They had to have an effect towards plate armours, a razor sharp sword is not really effective against that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.75.31.216 (talk) 02:34, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Swords were sharp and they didn't cut plate. Look at harnischfechten. Do you have references? Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 19:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

No, he doesn't. He's just repeating the same old nonsense about swords being blunt, being meant to 'crush' armor, and weighing 30 pounds. Essentially, having watched a few movies and read a couple RPG-books, and being an 'expert'.85.229.48.166 (talk) 17:49, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

He is indeed wrong about sword not being sharp, but a blade still needs to *slide* to cut your skin when you're in contact with it. You can have a very sharp sword and hold it by the blade, and not be cut while hitting things with the hilt. You can also grab a stationary sword by the blade and have people pull on it, and not only not get cut but not let go of the blade. Swords are sharp pieces of metal, people. They aren't lightsabers. Here, have evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwuQPfvSSlo 50.34.166.7 (talk) 05:22, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Possibly related: throwing the pommel

this picture shows one fighter unscrewing his pommel and throwing it at his opponent. This might be related to the Mordhau and could be mentioned in the Article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.173.201.59 (talk) 19:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

how is this "related"? dab (𒁳) 08:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Mordhau?

"Hau" implies a cutting action, which doesn't seem to be an accurate description of this technique. Does anyone have a reference to the word "Mordhau" every being used in a primary source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.215.204 (talk) 22:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, in modern colloquial German (which often incorporates outdated expressions), "hauen" can be translated as "to bash, to hit, to beat". -- megA (talk) 22:39, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Essentially, the same as the English word 'hew'. Which, if you look at pronounciation, isn't really surprising. Clearly the same base word.85.229.48.166 (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

How this article is searched for

This page isn't listed when searched for using 'Mordhau' in the search bar. It only appears when the full name: 'Mordhau (weaponry)', which makes it impossible for someone to directly see this when they type in 'Mordhau'. Despite this, the page is easy to access via the disambiguation page. Any suggestions on how to re-implement searching? Kiril kovachev (talk) 16:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)