Talk:Mongolian nobility

Mongols Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mongols, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Mongol culture, history, language, and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MongolsWikipedia:WikiProject MongolsTemplate:WikiProject MongolsMongols
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Asian / Chinese / Medieval

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion not met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Asian military history task force
	Chinese military history task force
	Medieval warfare task force (c. 500 – c. 1500)

Women's History Mid‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

East Asia (defunct)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject East Asia, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.East AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject East AsiaTemplate:WikiProject East AsiaEast Asia

Lists

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Royalty and Nobility

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility.

15-17th centuries "Feudal ladder" as listed in some sources

Khaan - хаан
Jinong - жонон
Chinsang - чинсан
Daichin - дайчин
Boshgotu - бошгот
Taizung - тайзун
Taishi - тайши
Uizeng - үйзэн
Zaisang - зайсан
Taiji - тайж
Tusalagchi - туслагч
Zahiragchi - захирагч
Meireng - мэйрэн
Zalang - залан
Zanggi - занги
Hunde - хүнд
Boshgo - бошго

It seems some govt posts that could be occupied by commoners have been confused with noble titles. But I keep this list here for future refenrences. Gantuya eng (talk) 04:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I'm not sure what kind of transcription you adopt. If it is transcription from Classical Mongolian, some are incorrect.

Here is the list of titles for Manchu imperial princes and Mongol princes. It was originally posted at User:Nanshu/Translation and based on 御製增訂清文鑒. I add Mongolian equivalents that are taken from 五體清文鑒. Note that Mongolian spelling does not necessarily follow modern orthography.

Rank	Manchu	Mongolian	Chinese
1	hošoi cin wang	qošui čin vang	和碩親王
2	šidzi	sidzi	世子
3	doroi giyūn wang	törü-yin giyün vang	多羅郡王
4	jangdzi	ǰangdzi	長子
5	doroi beile	törü-yin beyile	多羅貝勒
6	gūsai beise	qosiɣun-u beyise	固山貝子
7	kesi be tuwakiyara gurun be dalire gung	kesig-i sakiɣči ulus-un tüsiy-e güng	奉恩鎮國公
8	kesi be tuwakiyara gurun de aisilara gung	kesig-i sakiɣči ulus-tur tusalaɣči güng	奉恩輔國公
9	jakūn ubu de dosimbuhakū gurun be dalire gung	naiman qubi-dur oruɣuluɣsan ügei ulus-un tüsiy-e güng	不入八分鎮國公
10	jakūn ubu de dosimbuhakū gurun de aisilara gung	naiman qubi-dur oruɣuluɣsan ügei ulus-tur tusalaɣči güng	不入八分輔國公
11	gurun be dalire janggin	ulus-un tüsiy-e ǰanggi	鎮國將軍
12	gurun de aisilara janggin	ulus-tur tusalaqu ǰanggi	輔國將軍
13	gurun be tuwakiyara janggin	ulus-i sakiqu ǰanggi	奉國將軍
14	kesi be tuwakiyara janggin	kesig-i sakiqu ǰanggi	奉恩將軍

--Nanshu (talk) 22:14, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this table. This ladder seems at some places different from what I learned about the titles used for the Mongolian nobles. I don't know what šidzi and jangdzi were. I thought ǰanggi was the name of a military post. What is "kesig"? Is it "soum" in Mongolia? Soums were administered by ǰanggi. Also frontier stations were commanded by ǰanggi. Are you sure that the titles used by the Manchu nobles were completely identical to the titles used by the Mongol nobles? Were all these titles used throughout the Qing Empire or only in Mongolia and by the Manchus? Gantuya eng (talk) 02:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, a lot of questions.

A šidzi was the heir to a hošoi cin wang. Similary, a jangdzi was the heir to a doroi giyūn wang.
kesig is хишиг in Khalkha Mongolian and meant (imperial) favor.
In general, ǰanggi refers to various military ranks and posts. While ǰanggi in the above-mentioned ranks corresponds to 將軍 in Chinese, ǰanggi was usually transcribed as 章京 in Chinese. And, yes, ǰanggi also meant the chief governor of a sumu.
To be precise, the above table is of the Manchu imperial family. Those of Mongol princes are slightly different. According to 清史稿/志/職官/理藩院 (sorry, I use the newer compilation for the sake of convenience),
- For Mongol nobles in Inner Mongolia
  1. 親王 (čin vang)
  2. 郡王 (giyün vang)
  3. 貝勒 (beyile)
  4. 貝子 (beyise)
  5. 鎮國公 (ulus-un tüsiy-e güng)
  6. 輔國公 (ulus-tur tusalaɣči güng)
  7. those without ranks: 台吉 (tayiji) and 塔布囊 (tabunang)
- For tulergi jasak (i.e. the Khalkha, huhu nuur, ūlet, etc): 汗 (han), and
  - 王 (vang), 貝勒 (beyile), 貝子 (beyise) and 公 (güng) + 台吉 (tayiji); there was no tabunang.
Not sure if all these titles remained unchanged. At least, the Manchu imperial ranks were slightly reformed. The Republic of China kept these titles and pandered to the nobles with slightly higher ranks.
In addition to Manchu princes and Mongol nobles (including the Oyirad), some Muslim rulers of Turkestan were given the above titles of nobility. It's notable that the titles like prince (王, vang) were never given to the Chinese except for the early Three Feudatories.

And I have a question for you. Hoshoi Chin Wang = "Chin Wang twice"? It's a loanword from Manchu and consists of hošo and -i (genitive). hošo means (as dictionaries say) "corner" or "direction". I wonder why this word was used for the noble title. --Nanshu (talk) 23:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Thank you for the interesting comment. I thought "giyün vang" was "zhong" meaning middle. Now I see it's not. Actually I don't know the original meanings of these words. "hoshoi" seems to be the Mongolian word "twice". It's similar to "ZHU-iin hoshoi baatar" -- "twice hero of USSR". Gantuya eng (talk) 01:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about pre-15th century Mongol Empire? 144.89.195.171 (talk) 21:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's listed here Mongolian nobility#Mongol Empire Gantuya eng (talk) 03:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]