Talk:Mince pie/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Jezhotwells (talk) 01:06, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Disambiguations: none found.

Linkrot: none found. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:07, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
... where Roman fathers in the Vatican were presented with sweetmeats. Do you mean Roman Catholic priests? If so, please ay so.
Done.

OK, but now we have a contradiction. Saturnalia was an Ancient Roman feast. The Vatican is the headquartres of the Roman Catholic church. Why would Roman catholics celebrate Saturnalia?
The article does not suggest that Roman catholics celebrated Saturnalia. That said, to avoid confusion, I have changed it back to "fathers", which is the word used in the source.

The precise quote is: "Minced pies were derived from the paste images and sweetmeats given to the Fathers of the Vatican at Rome on Christmas Eve". No mention of Saturnalia there, so that needs to be changed.

The modern Mince pie's precursor was known by several names. lower case "mince"
Done.

Today the mince pie remains a popular Christmas treat, although as the modern recipe is no longer the same list of 13 ingredients once used (according to author Margaret Baker, representative of Christ and his 12 Apostles), it lacks the religious meaning contained therein Does this mean Margaret Baker is the "representative of Christ and his 12 Apostles". Please rephrase to clarify.
I don't think that needs clarifying. Nobody is going to presume that Margaret Baker is the representative of Christ et al.

It does need clarifying, please remember that not all readers have English as their first language. Suggest rephrasing: "according to author Margaret Baker, the thirteen ingredients are representative of Christ and his 12 Apostles" Would also be useful to mention the chopped mutton "in remembrance of the "shepherds"
The criteria here is that the prose is "clear and concise". The sentence is exactly that and I will not be changing it. It is absurd to suggest that someone may presume that the author of a modern book is somehow representative of a holy scene.

Precisely, so I suggest rewording as: "although as the modern recipe is no longer the same list of 13 ingredients once used, which were, according to author Margaret Baker, representative of Christ and his 12 Apostles."

~~The lead does not fully summarize the article, please check out WP:LEAD. It also contains information that is not in the body of the article itself.~~
What information exactly? Parrot of Doom 09:18, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake, or perhaps has been clarified by recent edits. Jezhotwells (talk) 10:37, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
References appear to be RS, check out, no OR
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
Needs a typical modern recipe, referenced of course.
I don't think it does. The article already implies that the mince pie is made from fruit, spices, sugar, suet and pastry. A modern recipe doesn't really add anything new.

I think that a direct comparison, within the article of the the earlier recipes with modern would be beneficial to the understanding of the subject. A "typical" modern recipe would be extremely useful for this.
That would be original research. There is no set recipe for a mince pie, but what remains is broadly similar to that used hundreds of years ago, minus of course any flesh.

Could do with something about modern practice, commercialization, stats of bakery and supermarket sales perhaps? A section on current practice, etc. would be good.
I don't have any industry-wide stats for the sale of mince pies. Doubtless they're in the millions, but I believe this is adequately covered by "popular Christmas treat". Parrot of Doom 09:18, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We are looking for "broad" coverage here, so a little more than "popular Christmas treat" is needed for the 20/21st century. As it stands the article focusses more on the history thatn anything else and so it is unbalanced. Jezhotwells (talk) 10:37, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Broad coverage - "(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)". Parrot of Doom 10:58, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Images check out, but I think moving File:William henry hunt christmas pie.jpg to the right would improve the layout
Overall:
Pass/Fail:
On Hold for seven days for these issues to be addressed. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:23, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, we have a disagreement here so I shall ask for a second opinion on whether there should be more about modern mince pies. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It has become clear that the nominator is resistant to the constructive good faith criticism and suggestions that have been made, so I shall close this review as "not listed". Please feel free to request a reassessment of the article or consider improvements before re-nominating at WP:GAN. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:35, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am a Wikipedia novice so please excuse any flagrant formatting errors. I came to this page curious to see exactly what is in a modern mince pie, and was surprised to see that information deliberately omitted. This does strike me as pretty fundamental information - granted you can kind of sort of piece it together by reading the whole article, but that's not particularly friendly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drake lazarus (talk • contribs) 18:54, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Second opinion

I'll provide a 2nd opinion. Gave me time for a read through and for research :-D --Philcha (talk) 11:27, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks Philcha. Jezhotwells (talk) 11:29, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"from an old Roman custom practised during Saturnalia, where Roman fathers in the Vatican were presented with sweetmeats" is ambiguous, as Saturnalia started in 217 BC. Vatican (a DAB page) shows that "Vatican" is also ambiguous. Timbs says, ""Minced pies were derived from the paste images and sweetmeats given to the Fathers of the Vatican at Rome on Christmas Eve" - no Saturnalia. --Philcha (talk) 12:56, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There are enough contemporary sources which comment on Christmas celebrations being derived from Saturnalia, especially the exchanging of sweetmeats, to make it clear that the "old practice" to which Timbs referred is Saturnalia. Here's an example, and here's another. Parrot of Doom 13:36, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Like the reviewer, I find the original "... the same list of 13 ingredients once used (according to author Margaret Baker, representative of Christ and his 12 Apostles)". The reviewer's "although as the modern recipe is no longer the same list of 13 ingredients once used, which were, according to author Margaret Baker, representative of Christ and his 12 Apostles" would be better. --Philcha (talk) 12:56, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't agree. Nobody is silly enough to think that Margaret Baker is a representative of anything and I will not be changing this.
Like the reviewer, I would one or more recipes - some readers will be less familiar with UK culture. My wife found me 3 pages, and the 2nd and 3rd include no-suet ones, for non-vegeterians: Home-made Christmas Mincemeat - Mincemeat - Recipes - from Delia Online, BBC - Food - Recipes : Cranberry-studded mincemeat, and Christmas Mincemeat Recipe - Recipe Homemade Mincemeat. --Philcha (talk) 12:56, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The article makes it quite clear that the modern recipe is little changed from the medieval recipe, mentioning that meat was removed, suet remains and that the size of the pie is much reduced. I have no intention of including a modern recipe, for that we have cookbooks. Parrot of Doom 13:36, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The article only covers UK culture. What about other English-speaking cultures (I note that my 3rd recipe is about.com, from USA). Any equivalents in non-English-speaking cultures? [Mincemeat (Whatever It Is) Is Still a Christmas Tradition says mince pies are enjoyed in USA. In 1889 2 NY Times reporters visiting Europe found a recipe and took a copy back home for their friends: English mince pie; a New-York reporter and his friends encounter that delicacy. Mince Pie Recipe: New York - DailyCandy from 2010. These are found by accident 2 pages from Google "mince pie new york". With other search terms I expect there lots more.--Philcha (talk) 14:28, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It covers only UK culture because it's a UK food that is largely irrelevant in other countries - hence why one of the articles above mentions that few in the US are interested in it. I'm not sure why it would be relevant to give passing mentions to such snippets as people taking the recipe home. I could of course add "popular Christmas treat enjoyed in the UK and beyond" (or similar) but that's about as much as I think is relevant - this is a British tradition and the article should be focussed on that. Parrot of Doom 14:56, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Page 1 of Google "mince pie statistics sales" got me 18m mince pies and other stats which failed to save M&S at Christmas, 8m mince pies hand Greggs sweet Christmas - Marketing news - Marketing magazine and (!) The first Christmas statistic Significance gave to me... --Philcha (talk) 14:28, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Find a source that says "annually, x million Mince pies are sold in the UK", and I'll include it (the "370 million" stat seems to be of dubious origin, with only The Mirror reporting it"). Otherwise, "popular Christmas treat" is fine for a GA. Parrot of Doom 14:56, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the reviewer is unbalanced, with too little on 20/21st century. In fact if I were writing the article I'd put modern pies first and then the history. --Philcha (talk) 14:28, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of the pie's history, its important history that is, is pre-19th century. I don't think you'll find much 20th or 21st-century history on the Mince pie because there isn't any. Today it's just a snack, bereft of religious symbolism. Parrot of Doom 14:56, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]