Talk:Michael Ignatieff/Archive 9

This is an archive of past discussions about Michael Ignatieff. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 5

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Archive 7

-Reviewing these edits, it seems the monitors of this area are using it as their personal vendetta, striking out opposition etc, and abusing their priveleges as administrators with frivilous warnings and attacks. Shame. -Eddie

Neutrality Nonesense

I have been informed that I broke neutrality in mentioning that Michael Ignatieff has repeatedly and explicitly stated his opposition to all forms of torture. This is pretty shocking, considering despite repeated criticisms, the Wikipedia Ignatieff page has been the most flagrant example of failed neutrality in this whole operation (only cleaned up after his leadership run completed, interestingly). That a man who built a career over several decades is allowed to be represented in terms of a few select political incidents over a period of months is one thing. It has escaped your careful standards nevertheless. But to suggest that at the very least there is not a clear debate between ONE paragraph in "The Lesser Evil" and the entire article in Prospect Magazine, as well as the famous CSPAN interview in which he states his opposition to coercive interrogation, is pathetic. Frankly I am shocked to see someone have the gall to suggest that allowing the previous privileging of one paragraph in such a way is somehow neutral. I did not professionally cite indeed, because I knew it would not stay up nor do I consider it worth my time, as this incident has proved some wikipedia monitor will surely notice. So the error you found was say "quality standards" or whatnot. But get it right. My facts are correct, and that political operatives have been able to co-opt this page for so long is really cause for you to be ashamed.

"Joshuapaquin" should thus keep his opinions to himself. But perhaps this is what happens when you have college kids editing a supposed "dictionary." Really this proves that Wikipedia is certainly an entertaining website (as you know from monitoring of personal IPs, I read it often) but nothing more.

I am interested to know how re-writing the exact same thing as I but adding the citation (which of course you were unable to find without me pointing you toward it) is somehow more neutral? Should I have mentioned that he also has been credited with supporting torture, despite it already being written directly above what I wrote? Nor is the incredibly off base wording that the "lesser evils" in the book's title refers to use of torture. Rather, Ignatieff clearly states that war itself, that violence (including situations such as WWII) include a lesser evil element. But of course you are not political scholars obviously. Know what you are speaking about before wasting my time.

I am assuming this is the talk page and thus an appropriate forum for this. I could care less though, I won't be editing any more since it appears to be a waste of time. But please, try and take this sad volunteer job more seriously in the future. Sadly, however, despite chiding me my edit seriously advanced the cause of neutrality on this webpage.

A couple points. First, I actually agree with you that Ignatieff does not support torture. He's said so many times. But you should also know that Joshua, and i as well, were among the wiki editors of this article that fought tooth and nail for balance. If you check the edit history, you'll see that this thing was a mess; there was a disgruntled editor who kept returning to the article, hurling accusations of bias, etc. In actuality, I agree that the section on Lesser Evil reads as if Ignatieff thinks torture is necessary to fight terrorism, but in the actual article he is simply offering this as a point-counter-point discussion. He writes in a very winding, dialectic fashion, which easily lends itself to being quoted out of context. But believe me, this section, and the article overall, in much better shape than before, and this was only done with the help of wiki administrators who protected the article and consistent editors like Joshua, who are pretty balanced in their contributions. Second, if you think the section on Lesser Evil can be improved, why don't you write an alternative version here, and if it looks good to the few others around, you can add it in. Finally, it would be really helpful if you created an account on here, rather than editing with anonymous ip. That way everyone can be sure who is who, in the course of discussing future edits. Thanks! -Finnegans wake 11:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the interview he gave to the Australian Broadcastin Company [1] (which was recently deleted as a source) shows in his own words that so called lesser forms of torture are acceptable and,further,he even uses the term "torture" in describing them;e.g.;

"I think you can distinguish between torture and coercive interrogation. I think there are forms of coercive interrogation that stop short of the torture standard. As a matter of analytic clarity, I think it’s a mistake for the Human Rights community to say anything beyond name, rank and serial number, that’s coercive, equates to torture. We do ourselves, in making these arguments, no good in obliterating the distinction between courses of interrogation and torture. There are forms of repetitive, recursive interrogation techniques that do not involve physical violence, but involve psychological stress that do not involve the kinds of line that cause, it seems to me, unjustifiable psychological stress... there may be ways of putting people through severe recursive, non-physical, harassing interrogating that stops short of torture, stops short of this kind of lasting psychological abuse that we simply may need to use if we’re dealing with a high level suspect, such as the leader of the people running the beheading videos in Iraq. I can’t find myself siding with those who simply take an absolutist moral perfectionist human rights stand on this. I think it’s a problem of finding a small category of coercive interrogation techniques that will get us intelligence results without dishonouring the United States, and shaming the operators.The reality is that torture does work, that’s the problem. It works if you’re objective is timely information. The right way to deal with this is not to permit physical methods, but to allow a mitigation excuse. If it’s time sensitive. If you have to get it now in order to protect troops or protect civilians, applying physical methods may work. That’s the problem with it. The human rights argument that it doesn’t work, it’s unnecessary, it seems to me an evasion of the real problem which is sometimes it does, if you need timely, urgent, actionable intelligence to protect other people. And there you are in what seems to me a classic lesser evil case. You can in good faith, seek to protect another human being, or a group of human beings, and to do so you have to abuse the human rights of another person. "

Only after being called up on the matter by students at UO did he start using an unconventional definition for the word "torture" which does not include things like sensory deprivation and other forms of coercive interragation. He has adopted a position similar to Clinton's in the sense that if "sex" doesn't include oral sex then Clinton was able to say "I did not have sex with that woman". Ignatieff has apparently decided that numerous types of psychological and physical abuse no longer fits his personal definition of torture so now he can loudly proclaim he is against "torture" and wants a ban on all "torture". 70.48.205.126 19:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Broken Link

Could someone with access to this article fix the link to Ignatieff's talk "The Lesser Evil" (in External Links)? The correct address is http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/4370.html. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.25.150.134 (talk • contribs)

Done --Strothra 18:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you!

Bringing in outside editors

I think unprotecting this article and bringing in outside editors via peer review, etc. should solve any edit disputes. Sockpuppetry and vandalism can be dealt with through typical dispute resolution channels. Antonrojo 14:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I am still unable to understand what is going on here. I unprotedted the article. After that some information has been added and again the article has been protected. Shyam ^(T/C) 17:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

npov

Article has been sanitized to exclude mention of important blunders and outrageous self contradictions made by Ignatieff. 70.48.204.223 04:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This source is the reputable [2] Toronto Star wherein Ignatieff says in reference to the killing of many Lebanese children "This is the kind of dirty war you're in when you have to do this and I'm not losing sleep about that." This is just 1 of many news making blunders by Ignatieff which have been sanitized from the article. The article is pov and the tag should not be removed. 64.229.28.107 14:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually I agree that their should be a mention of his initial Lebanon comments in the article. There is already a fair bit about the fallout from his later "war crime" comments. Although that section will obviously take some care and I'm not looking forward to writing it myself. --JGGardiner 11:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

In the U.K. people could not figure out what he was going on about. They were so happy he left the country. Many British harbour good fellings towards Canada and feel it is such a pity he ended up there. Why didn't the canadian government revoke his passport?

Civility issue

( uncivil comment removed) Antonrojo 04:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a lot of sympathy for editors who feel that their input here is overlooked. But I think that all of this uproar is not going to get you anywhere. And in the end it will probably hurt your cause more than it will help and cause everyone a lot of grief along the way. I really mean this as a bit of friendly advice: if you want to actually see positive change in the articles, this isn't the best way to go about it. Thanks. --JGGardiner 10:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Knock it off, Ottawaman. You're a blocked user evading a block. Under the blocking policy, all your edits can be reverted on sight. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 01:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you a Montrealer? Or going to the convention otherwise?

If so, leave me a message ASAP on my talk page. I'm looking to get someone into the convention with a camera. You'll have the opportunity to photograph the candidates, hopefully one-on-one. (I think I can pull a few strings with some of the key players.) -- Zanimum 20:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Russian translation

Can someone who speaks Russian confirm this is legitimate, and not a hidden obscenity? CJCurrie 05:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Quebec as a nation

While I don't know for sure about the Quebec Liberal motion regarding Quebec as a nation, I do know that the motion by the Harper Government is regarding the Quebecois people, and not the province itself. DB 03:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Criticism of Michael Ignatieff's Record - Human Rights,International Law,War Crimes...

Ignatieff resigned from the editoral and advisory board of the journal Index on Censorship in 2005 to protest an article by Conor Gearty, professor of human rights law at the London School of Economics, that excoriated Ignatieff and other liberal intellectuals who had, in Gearty's opinion, given Donald Rumsfeld "the intellectual tools with which to justify his government's expansionism."—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dave06 (talk • contribs)

The Index on Censorship, refused to apologize to Ignatieff (or retract).

Also see the southern mutation: The Tom Friedman disease

Conor Gearty's Wikipedia article has disapeared.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dave06 (talk • contribs)

This issue, among many many others re: Ignatieff's "empire lite" defense of American hegemony, has been roundly criticized by many other specialists in the field of international relations. There needs to be some documentation of this in the article. Perhaps a section related to criticism? Inoculatedcities 20:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Opinion on the Kyoto Protocol

The article on the French language Wikipedia simply states that "he is against Kyoto", like that. I suspect great nuances on his part and numerous esoteric debates by commentators, if it has any ring of truth. Can someone shed some light on this? --Liberlogos 14:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

His views and words are Orwellian coupled with the standard american leader's "Bullshit Baffles Brains" approach. Once you see them in that way there is no more confusion. Canuckster 19:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Ignatieff loses Liberal Leadership Campaign

What's Ignatieff going to do now? Anybody know? Shouldn't there be more interest here about Ignatieff's loss? Or at least a link to the convention item? Liberal Party of Canada leadership convention, 2006? What's going on? Canuckster 05:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Ignatieff and Rae have announced that they will run for the next Liberal leadership [3] [4]. Since Ignatieff has a seat in the House of Commons he will probably hang onto it. Should this be added to the article? FellowWikip e dian 00:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, those news articles indicate that they will be running in the next election - they say nothing about the next leadership race. -Joshuapaquin 01:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I misunderstood the articles. But, should someone add that Ignatieff will hang onto his seat in the House of Commons? FellowWikip e dian 15:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That's surprising news, considering Ignatieff has said that he will not run as an MP in the next election if he does not win the Party leadership.

Rae and Ignatieff have both said that they will run in the next election.[5]

Oh, I realise that. I was alluding to earlier comments by Michael. But thanks.

Since no one has responded to my question I have added info on Ignatieff's loss. Feel free to add to it. FellowWikip e dian 01:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Hijacking of this article by political agents?

What's going on is, Michael Ignatieff's supporters, who hijacked and spun this article for the better part of a year, have stopped, now that their candidate has lost the Liberal leadership race. There is nothing more for them to do.

I've watched this article from the beginning, and it's the sickest case of political manipulation, masked as a legitimate article, I've seen on the internet thus far. And I don't exaggerate that statement.

Good riddance to them.

I happen to agree with the anon above; nevertheless, if that's true should not the article still be npoved? Canuckster 19:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I also think that there should be some analysis of this article by some authority at Wikipedia to see if there has been an administrative influence in support of the pov agenda which the anon references. It did seem to me that the anti-Iggy crowd were all blocked for behaviour which the pro-Iggy crowd were exercising freely.Canuckster 20:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

This is pretty annoying that all the people whining about the article are not helping when such an important development happens. Canuckster 20:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Civility issue

( uncivil comment removed) Canuckster 19:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

CJCurrie's and Strotha's edit removals

These [6][7] removals of sourced information without discussion are out of line. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.71.122.107 (talk • contribs)

You inserted POV and speculative information. Other editors removed it. See WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Stop reinserting those speculations. Also, familiarize yourself with WP:3RR. In the future, remember to sign your comments. Consider registering instead of hiding behind an IP. Do not accuse established editors of being "out of line." Cease engaging in your edit war now. It hasn't gone unnoticed that you've been trying to insert your bias since, at least, December 2. --Strothra 22:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

What's with the adhominem response? Obviously there should be discussion before removal of sourced updates.

Is this edit ok ? "Media reports that Ignatieff's 30-year absence from Canada and his initial support for the US-led invasion of Iraq played against him. [8]If not, please explain what the problem is. 70.48.205.75 14:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

That one comment made in the article states that it is based on what "our correspondent says" yet does not give his/her name or credentials. It's hardly a reliable source. It's not Wikipedia's place to adopt the speculation of its sources. Please stop POV pushing. --Strothra 14:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying the BBC is not a reliable source? Please advise what part of this article is admissable in your view. To me it seems as if only edits complimentary to Ignatieff are being welcomed by yourself and a few others; there is virtually nothing about the uproar in the human rights community related to his support for the invasion of Iraq and what he calls American Empire. I agree with the anon above who states the article is inherently biased and censored; are you saying that editor, who I think only edited once, is also being "noticed" ? What's going on with this veiled personal attack of "It hasn't gone unnoticed" ? Is this wikipedia methodology now to intimidate editors with whom one disagrees? 70.48.205.75 15:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Is Strothra an administrator? Does anyone know? 70.48.205.75 15:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources based on factual information are reliable (ie not speculation). You are trying to cite a quote from the BBC article which is not by the author of the article nor a provable reliable source. Again, stop editing anon and register already. Also, I am not an admin nor have ever claimed to be so. --Strothra 15:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Whether Strothra is an administrator is completely irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is your edits violate multiple policies. As you well know. Sarah Ewart 15:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

You can not take a single media account and describe at as representative of the media in general. However, I think that it would be a fair comment that his position on Iraq may have played against him. But it would have to be described properly as speculation from some media sources. Also please remember civility. CJCurrie and Strothra's edits were not out of line. Editors will disagree, we just have to resolve it properly. It is also generally better to refer to edits rather than editors. --JGGardiner 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

ok, I have adjusted the edit to conform to JGGardiner's suggestion; perhaps a better approach would be for adjustments to be made rather than edit removals at least that seems more constructive I think. 67.71.123.101 19:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see Canuckster / Neutralizer / etc and his army of sock puppets have returned (67.71.*.* / 70.48.*.*). I gather we'll be seeing more accusations of "PRO-IGGY EDITS!!!" or "PRO-IGGY POLITICAL AGENTS" like those above against CJCurrie in the very near future, along with the usual endless attempts to incorporate STOPIGGY quotes into each section of the article. - Finnegans wake 09:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No. Gingerbread man as well as the anon who brought up the political agents issue are both from different ISPs than Canuckster/Neutralizer from what my admin. friend tells me. Please at least get your facts straight before deflecting discussion in an adhominem direction. Also I see no post election attempts to incorporate the STOPIGGY links. 70.48.204.221 14:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't act shocked that people don't trust anonymous IPs. The only reason you hide behind the anonymous IP is because you can use to edit war. --Strothra 14:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Please stop this right now, Ottawaman. Administrators cannot see users ISPs or IPs. Only 13 people have access to that information and they would not share it with you. Please stop trolling. Sarah Ewart 15:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

"Our correspondent" or "an anonymous source"

Strotha has characterized the BBC's correspondent as "an anonymosus source" (source clearly states this view is that of their correspondent[9]). I corrected that but if Strotha wishes to justify his charectorization please do. 70.48.204.227 14:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I see Strotha has changed it back to "anonymous source". I will await discussion rather than engage in edit dispute. Also, Sarah Ewart reverted a grammar correction edit when reverting gingerbreadman's edit; I believe it should read running "in" an election rather than "for"; but again will wait for consensus. 70.48.204.227 14:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

How about reading the article and you'll get your justification. The article does not give his/her name thus common sense concludes that person is anonymous. --Strothra 14:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's see what others think. I have a different opinion as if NY Times quotes it's "correspondent" in the field I think that is different from quoting an "anonymous source"...but maybe others will see it as you do. 70.48.204.227 14:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The article says, in its current form, "anonymous correspondent." That is perfectly accurate - I didn't change correspondent back to source. --Strothra 14:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you are looking at a different article? This one says this; "However his 30-year absence from Canada and his initial support for the US-led invasion of Iraq played against him, our correspondent says." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.48.204.227 (talk) 15:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Actually I don't think there is such a term as "anonymous correspondent"..that's an oxymoron I think. 70.48.204.227 15:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Many correspondents have names. Also, I went ahead and removed the text due to the policy at WP:NOT#CBALL which states, "Articles that present extrapolation, speculation, and "future history" are original research and therefore inappropriate." Even if a credible source speculates something, Wikipedia articles should not present that speculation. --Strothra 15:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

CommentThis is a quite combative and illogical approach to first adjust an edit, then move it further down the article, then delete it alltogether. 67.71.122.250 17:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's not an oxymoron. A correspondent is simply a job title. Saying "anonymous correspondent" is an oxymoron is like saying "anonymous doctor," "anonymous teacher," "anonymous nurse" etc are oxymorons. Most publications name their correspondents and it is quite relevant when an article refers to an anonymous correspondent Sarah Ewart 16:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It is more accurate to describe the source as an "anonymous correspondent". To say, "The BBC speculates" is extremely misleading. The BBC didn't speculate anything, they merely reported the opinion of an anonymous "correspondent". Also, the BBC is not quoting their "correspondent in the field." They're merely quoting a "correspondent". These are big differences. Please don't try to manipulate a reference to try to make it seem like it's saying things it isn't or try to word things in a way that add more weight to your POV than the sources actually indicate. Sarah Ewart 16:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC) By the way, Ottawaman, please stop posting personal commentary about other editors. As you've been told countless times already, this talk page is for discussing the article, not Strothra, not CJ, not me, not anyone else. Sarah Ewart 16:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No! The source was a BBC correspondent; your attempts to throw in the word "anonymous" are transparent pov pushing and Strothra even misrepresented what the article said or else misread it himself. Please settle down and try to help develop a good article instead of namecalling. Canuckster 18:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

That's absurd, you're trying to accuse me of POV pushing?? ha. BBC did not name its correspondent and the article must represent that fact because who knows who that correspondent may have been and whether or not they are reliable. If s/he's not named then s/he's anonymous. Besides, under the aegis of WP:NOT#CBALL it is against the Wiki manual of style to use the article. --Strothra 18:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe Gardner is in favour of including the BBC reference if it is referred to as "speculation". Most of the article's references to the meanings of Iggy's work is also speculation. Has there been an agreement that the BBC source was not identified by them as "anonymous"? 67.71.122.250 17:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I meant to say that I was in favour of the sentence in the article, not necessarily the particular source which I honestly hadn't even read at that point. Ignatieff wasn't able to convince a lot of delegates to come to him. Most media noted this was because of his high "negatives" which were most commonly attributed to his foreign policy and time out of Canada. I would probably like to see two sources which say this. And I probably would just drop the BBC one since it is so contentious. But I'm pretty sure that it won't be hard to find two others. If it were, the BBC one would be anomalous and not worthy of inclusion anyway. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JGGardiner (talk • contribs) 18:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Either way, WP:NOT#CBALL does not allow for speculation to be included. No one can ever know why he did not when, otherwise you would need to know what was in the mind of the majority of voters. All else is speculation which Wikipedia cannot adopt since speculation is merely origional research. --Strothra 18:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, and noting we are usually on the same side here, I think that it is a misread of "crystal ball": it is really talking about speculation of what might occur in the future. When talking about politics, we have to speculate somewhat. If not for media speculation, how would we know that the NEP was unpopular for example? Or that Brian Mulroney was unpopular at the end of his term? All analysis, some might say all history, is a kind of speculation. The proper route for such an is to note that it is indeed speculation and to note who was doing the speculating. --JGGardiner 18:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I think at this time my problems are this 1) The BBC article is clearly unsuitable because there is no named source (I agree with you about leaving out the BBC source and trying to find another) and 2) It really shouldn't be given undue weight in the article. As a biography there are many more facets to Ignatieff's life to be focused on than the result of one election. Ideas about why he lost the election really only merit one, maybe two, sentances. --Strothra 18:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. --JGGardiner 19:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we could agree to stop the adhominem discussions here and it should be admitted that Gingerbreadman and the anon who made accusations of article bias is not me. 67.71.122.250 17:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, it seems Strothra and Gardiner have now agreed to allow the other 2 article references he previously struck (Harvard News and Globe and Mail); at least in part. I will reinsert them and then Strothra can perhaps whittle them down to whatever small content he feels is appropriate. Canuckster 23:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with Strothra's ludicrous assertion that this election is a minute part of Ignatieff's life. It would be like relegating Al Gore's loss in the 2000 election to a smart part of his bio article. In fact, when looking at the Gore bio I see even webblogs are quoted in the 2000 election analysis "The popular political weblog The Daily Howler contends that Gore lost the election due to a relentless media "war,"... which only goes to show that this article has consistently been treated out of normal wikipedia process and ,imo, consistently preferentially in Ignatieff's favour; including his praises/accomplishments and excluding his failures/detractors.Canuckster 23:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I haven't even looked at the Gore article, nor am I concerned with it because this is the article I am working on at the moment. Regardless, I'm from the U.S. have absolutely no personal interest in Canadian politics. The only interest I have in Ignatieff is in regard to his scholarship, which is really what establishes his notability. I would think that it's more solid to argue that the Gore election is covered more in-depth because there is a U.S. bias on Wikipedia. The majority of the editors on here are from the U.S., and Al Gore's notability arises primarily out of his political background. Ignatieff has long had an international public life which existed well before Gore's. --Strothra 23:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Those are good points but I think that Ignatieff's scholarship has been overemphasized and that his other activities such as journalism and broadcasting have been underemphasized in the article. To me it seems his current political activities trump everything else especially since he seems to be saying he will continue with the politics. Canuckster 23:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the coverage of journalism is lacking in the article. I'd be careful about adding very current items to the political section though, Wiki is not a news source, but an encyclopedia. That belongs on Wikinews. I know, however, that it is done to a good extent on Wiki. --Strothra 23:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Education

There is a problem with his educational information. Mr. Ignatieff did not attend school in England, but did teach there. His graduate work was done at Harvard. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.226.60.48 (talk) 22:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

Lesser Evils and Coner Gearty's accusations of "Legitimizing Torture"

I am back now and will try to collaborate in a friendly way.I have mentioned on the peer review page some additions,changes I thought were needed for the article. For some reason my talk page has been protected as has my user page , just so you are aware of that in case you wish to reach me. Since Gearty is Director of Human Rights[10] at the London School of Economics and such an important figure in the Human Rights communityI spent a lot of time trying to include this important accusations of legitimizing torture information with credible citations and with npov phraseology as well as correcting the lesser evils section to focus on exactly what Ignatieff said in his Lesser Evils op-ed rather than any interpretation of what he said. I hope there will be an assumption of good faith going forward toward my edits and I will commit to doing the same toward others. Canuckster 14:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Gearty. I think it can be included at the end of the "Lesser Evils" section after the sentence ending with "...torture." But instead of naming Gearty specifically in the text of the criticism - which is not very encyclopedia like - it is better to acknowledge the criticisms generally and then cite Gearty's text as a source. It might read something like: "Ignatieff's 'Lesser Evil approach' has been criticized by some prominent human rights advocates as offering an analytical framework to legitimize forms of torture. Ignatieff maintains, however, that he supports a complete ban on torture." The problem with citing other authors specifically in the criticisms is that it (a) makes the article about Conor Gearty (which it isn't) and (b) begins a "source war", where another editor will add a criticism of Gearty to offer balance (Gearty is known in human rights circles, but is certainly not a leading scholar). For example, Eve Garrard - Professor of Ethics at Keele University - (and no slouch on matters on human rights and international obligations or morality) has herself critiqued Conor Gearty's take on Ignatieff:

Torture is morally wrong, and shouldn't be used. Ignatieff endorses this view explicitly and overtly. Claiming that he's nonetheless a friend and apologist for torturers, on the basis of his willingness to infringe some liberties in order to preserve lives, to permit (though reluctantly) some psychological pressure on suspects, and to use the language of morality (which Gearty himself also uses), is a piece of hysterical overstatement of a kind which debases the currency of serious moral criticism. It makes it harder rather than easier for us to work out how to handle the conflicts of moral duty which terrorist actions raise for liberal democracies.[11]

So now someone adds that. And the article starts looking silly. See what I mean? - Finnegans wake 01:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of Human Rights Leaders' criticisms of Ignatieff

Octavious deleted them en masse [12] with no discussion at all; so if the contributors here simply do not want the criticisms of Ignatieff by others in the Human Rights community included in the article then I'll just quit wasting my time. Canuckster 19:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

In the past, I’ve always been polite and courteous, even when I disagreed with the edits. I know that we’re not supposed to be “feeding” but I’ve always had faith in people. Or at least I’ve had faith that any troublesome editor will come around and see the efficient and proper functioning of Wikipedia. I don’t always “AGF” but I always have faith in Wikipedia that any sufficiently informed editor will eventually practice good faith. Anyone can edit this encyclopedia and not everyone will understand what “NOR” or “NPOV” is right away. It can take time. But I don’t see any reciprocation and I’m more than a little disheartened. I’ve been courteous to the point that I’m now quite embarrassed that, in the interest of fairness, I let stand comments that were really unfair to Sarah. Enough is enough. I think that I’m the last editor naïve enough to hope that you might be respectful and now I’ve run out of patience. I hope that even if you won’t be fair to the rest of the editors here and to the project, you will at least see that every word you type not only hurts you but hurts the ability of any other editor to advance the same positions in the future. --JGGardiner 21:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I'm new to this debate and I would like to understand it. In the former paragraph "Canuckster" comments that "Octavious" removed a significant quantity of material without discussion. The response in the latter paragraph above seems, to me, to not address the complaint but instead is a personal attack on "Canuckster" --- "I’m the last editor naïve enough to hope that you might be respectful", and so on. I followed the link to see what was removed, and on reading it the material seems uncontentious to me. It is almost entirely quotes with citations, and it seems to be relevant material for a biography of Ignatieff. "Octavious" provides only the explanation that he or she is removing "Canuckster"'s edits. In both "Octavious"'s removal of the material and "JGGardiner"'s response above nobody seems to be discussing the material itself and why it should or should not be included in Ignatieff's biography; the subject of the debate seems to be "Canuckster" personally. It all comes across as very odd. Can someone shed more light on this? Why was the material removed?

I don't see why you think that my post was an attack. I will say that I was quite serious when I said that I'd lost patience. --JGGardiner 01:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Because the comments, even here again, are about the person not the material. There seems to be an attempt to justify the material's removal by stating opinions about the person who posted it. Perhaps Canuckster has earned those opinions, but surely you don't believe that is a rational editing policy. That's what I'm trying to understand: why was the material removed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.215.114.212 (talk) 22:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

Look, Ottawaman/Canuckster/etc was at that time evading an indefinite block (he is now community banned) and as such all his edits were subject to reverting, regardless of whether you personally think they were good edits or not. This is clearly stated in the blocking policy:

"Edits made by blocked users while blocked may be reverted. (Admins can revert all edits from blocked users and re-make the good edits under their own names, to avoid confusing other admins who may be monitoring the same users.)"

There's no "attempt to justify the material's removal" because the folks who removed the material were doing so within site policy. Honestly, your comments here are very suspicious and I would ask you to please let this matter go. The Canuckster issue has been resolved and he has been allowed to leave the site peacefully, digging up the past is of no benefit to anyone, but particularly not for him since he was facing some rather serious real world repercussions for his actions here and asked us to show compassion and allow him to leave quietly. Please allow that to happen. Sarah 07:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality Nonesense

Broken Link

Bringing in outside editors

Archives

npov

Civility issue

Are you a Montrealer? Or going to the convention otherwise?

Russian translation

Quebec as a nation

Criticism of Michael Ignatieff's Record - Human Rights,International Law,War Crimes...

Opinion on the Kyoto Protocol

Ignatieff loses Liberal Leadership Campaign

Hijacking of this article by political agents?

Civility issue

CJCurrie's and Strotha's edit removals

"Our correspondent" or "an anonymous source"

Education

Lesser Evils and Coner Gearty's accusations of "Legitimizing Torture"

Deletion of Human Rights Leaders' criticisms of Ignatieff