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Order of Canada

It is also important to note that upon her appointment as GG, Jean will automatically be appointed to the Order of Canada as the rank of Companion (C.C). Her spouse will also become a C.C, bring the total up to 165, the maximum allowed under law. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:08, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Correction, after these two appointments, four more people can be appointed to the rank of Companion. There are four honorary Companions and they do not count towards the 165 limit. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 22:31, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Question: what would have happened if there had already been a full complement of 165+4=169 when a new GG was appointed? Loganberry (Talk) 23:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Honestly, I have no clue. But when spots open up, I assume the new General General takes the spot automatically. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:42, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
According to Order of Canada, at one point "there were 166 living Companions", so presumably they'd just go over the limit. "Exceptional circumstances", probably. Peter T.S. 00:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe that this refers to the total, including honourary Companions. FiveParadox 05:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The Order Constitution only calls for three automatic appointments: the Canadian Monarch, the GG and their spouse, and it takes place on their appointment to their positition. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:44, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I will keep a close eye on this and see when Michaelle and her husband are appointed and provide citations once I get them. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:50, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Also, Michaelle will be be awarded the Order of Military Merit (Canada), with the rank of Commander (CMM), and most likely the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, with the rank of Companion (COM). Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Religion

Where's the reference for her religion?--Westendgirl 23:55, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I am trying to find it out. BTW, do you like Pet Shop Boys by any chance? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
In all seriosness, I think that someone might put her religion down as that because of either taking a wild guess or confusing information. She did work on Roman Catholic documentries, but I cannot find anything relating to her religion at all. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:17, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Shes Catholic, I just heard it on CFRB Toronto, which is a pretty reliable news station. Although they did report she was Canada's youngest GG ever; so they aren't 100% accurate.
I read about the latter part about her being the youngest GG, but I wasn't finding anything about her religion at all. We can always get it back in (though you might hear something before I do). Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:40, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I can't find anything that says she's Catholic. And we don't know whether CFRB is taking a guess -- it happens. I wouldn't doubt that people would assume her religion, based on her background. But that doesn't mean it's right. Is there a reason we list the religion anyway? (Perhaps for context, such as Jeanne Sauve & the non campaign.) Oh, and, while I know the Pet Shop Boys song well, it's more a reference to my neighbourhood. --Westendgirl 18:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I am also having a hard time finding it, but we have some time to wait and see if she says anything publicly or we see her and her family attend mass. However, I do agree with you, it might have been added based on her background. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I can't find anything other than this fragment but this suggests she's probably an atheist or an agnostic, since she is not swearing in to the GG's post on a bible. Of note, "She's not going to swear on the Bible because she is not practising herself, so it would show a lack of respect to the people who have faith," Dze27 01:04, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Are there specific religious requirements to attend Catholic universities? She attended a few Catholic institutions. As well, she could just be a non-practising Catholic. Homagetocatalonia, 19:05 UTC 28/09/2005
Most Quebecois are. Carolynparrishfan 13:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Governer General

When was the last time the governer general was a Briton?


File:Michaelle Jean and Jean-Daniel Lafond.jpg
Image:Michaelle Jean and Jean-Daniel Lafond.jpg

There is a prelim photo relased by the PMO office: http://www.pm.gc.ca/grfx/jean.jpg. We can claim CanadaCopyright on this one. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:47, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I uploaded it to the right. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The photos look great at their present locations. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
How do we know that this is CrownCopyright? The PM's page just says there's a high resolution picture. Of course, I'd assume they own the copyright. But how do we know for sure? --Westendgirl 18:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Seems clear enough to me from http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news.asp?id=558 that it's a promo photo from the PMO which is very acceptable on WP. If someone objects that it's their copyrighted photo, it can be deleted then. DoubleBlue (Talk) 18:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
That is where I got the photo from, so that is why I cited the photo as Canadian Crown Copyright. I know there will be an official photo released soon after her investure and I think there will be one of her wearing her Order of Canada Companion medal. Her husband will have a new photo too of him wearing his Companion medal. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:37, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I just wondered why the PMO didn't say it was for use in the public domain. --Westendgirl 20:15, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Awards and other info

Info that isn't mentioned in the article that you might want to confirm and add: She has won - the Amnesty International Journalism Award in 1995 (a 15-part series on women) - the 1994 Anik Prize for information reporting - the 2000 Galaxi Award for best information program host.

The documentaries she has worked with Jean-Daniel Lafond to produce - L'heure de Cuba (1999) - 40th anniversary of the Cuban revolution - Tropique Nord (1994)- condition of blacks in Quebec - Haiti dans tous nos rêves (1995).

There is a lot of other info there too - http://www.cbc.ca/programguide/personality/index.jsp?personality=Jean%2C+Michaelle&program=Passionate+Eye

  • There is also a bunch of things too people will be working on. We will get many people to this article in the next few days. Also, I will not be surprised is she is appointed to the National Order of Quebec. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:03, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Should we have links to blogs or should we stick with links like the CBC? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:22, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, clearly I would need to be convinced that a blog is a reputable source for anything than one person's view. DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The one that was added belongs to those who support the monarchy. I suggest we remove it. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I slyly said clearly above because I had already done so before seeing your talk notice. :-) DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I am trying more to engage in discussion, since dealing with a page like this, people will come here a bunch looking for intel on Mme. Jean. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
You are quite right and it's good for others to see what's already been discussed and decided. DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:41, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
We also need a reaction section, since as an annon pointed out, Jean could be supportive of a free Quebec. I also should look at what Bearcat posted on the article and try to make that into a legit paragraph. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:45, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Name Pronounciation

I think the correct pronounciation of her first name should definitely be put on her page. It's a fairly uncommon name and I've heard different news outlets pronounce it differently

Of course, but I think it is placed after the post-nominal letters in brackets. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
It's "MEEK-ayl" isn't it? --NDP logo Earl Andrew - talk 05:31, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
From the above post, it almost sounds like Mikhail. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:32, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Three syllables. The ë kind of does double duty as an e at the end of second syllable and another e at the start of third. DoubleBlue (Talk) 05:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Ok, that sounds good to me, but I do not know where we can get the official pronounciation. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I dont think it's 3 syllables for the same reason my name, "Earl" is not two. --NDP logo Earl Andrew - talk 06:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Just to note that a user (can't remember who and couldn't be bothered to look it up) created a redirect from Michelle Jean. I think that's reasonable, since the spelling of her name is a bit unfamiliar to some and I can almost guarantee that some media outlets have been pronouncing it that way. (Even I used to mentally pronounce her name as "Michelle" before the first time I heard it pronounced otherwise.) Bearcat 06:15, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I have no problems with it either, since everytime I use the official name we have here, or the variation without the umlaut, I always get "Did you mean: Michelle Jean?" If that is another spelling, I can check the Catholic information again. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:17, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I've always pronounced it "MEE-kayl" whether the "yl" is 2 syllables is still up for debate in my mind, but I get in a huff about it. --NDP logo Earl Andrew - talk 07:09, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to write that if anyone ever watches the wonderful documentary show "Ruff Cuts" Michaëlle Jean is on it a lot and she Always introduces herself. And it is most definately 2 (TWO) syllables in length (her first name that is). After the "Mi" the rest is one syllable, unless you want to count the final "le" as a syllable, but it just rolls off the tounge. Listen to her say her OWN name--then discuss. Her show is on CBC NewsWorld. P.S.: Another good documentary show also on NewsWorld is the "Passionate Eye." I have seen some of the best televison in my life on both of those shows. P.P.S: My favourite docu so far this year was: "The Power of Nightmares." Pretty scary stuff. --dbishop 19:25, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I do want to count the finale [ɛl] as a syllable. It's lovely how French names roll off the tongue, isn't it. DoubleBlue (Talk) 19:37, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Dhbishop, in that when she pronounces her own name, it is deffinately two syllables. --NDP logo Earl Andrew - talk 19:44, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
No she deffinately pronunces it with three sylables on The Passionate Eye. Like it says in the article: mi: - kæ - ɛ l (actually I'm not sure wheather its ɛ or e). - Farquard 00:59, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The exact IPA symbols stand to be corrected but I strongly agree with three syllables. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:58, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Weren't you looking for the French pronunciation? Because [miː·kæ·ɛɫ ʒɛ̃] seems strange in French (especially the last name)...
I would propose [mi·ka·ɛl ʒɑ̃]--Staatenloser 18:24, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Without any answer, I added the French pronunciation. I have no idea where [ʒɛ̃] came from (which do not exist in French), at least prononce [ʒɑ̃]!
Staatenloser 16:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Remarks

I am trying to find remarks from people other thank Mme. Jean, PM Martin and Clarkson. I only found Harper, and no other party is commenting on it, though I think the Bloc should say something. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:13, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

NVM, the Bloc said something. I would be surprised that they did not support the nomination. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I saw a bit of Duceppe on the news last night; he was lamenting that a 'champion of democracy' (or some such words) was accepting nomination to a non-democratic post. I'll see if I can dig up the quote. Radagast 12:24, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
Ah, it is in the article. Never mind! Radagast 12:35, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
I posted a link in the References section so that you can see the comments in full. I know others have commented, but I am not sure if we can add comments leaders in the Haitian community have made. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 17:53, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Fourth CBC Governor-General

Is this just a coincidence or is there something more to it? Michelle Jean is the fourth GG in a row to have had some kind of connection to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC). My question is to anyone who can answer it; what significance, if there is one, does this indicate, and above all, what role does the CBC play in Canadian politics? Capt.Nero

Well, since she is not someone who came from the political scene, she might not be as well-versed on Constitutional law. However, since she was working as a journalist with the CBC, she has the chance to be unbiased in her views. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:22, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it's also a desire to have someone who is well-spoken and understands how to deal with media and public. Why CBC over another media outlet? I think it's just the biggest television network, has more bilingual employees, and attracts those with higher social goals (i.e., you're not in it for the money if you stick with the CBC over private television). DoubleBlue (Talk) 18:47, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
From today's Globe & Mail, on similarities to Clarkson:Both honed their public personas during many years before CBC cameras; both have an activist bent and a warm personal style; both have an aura of refinement, but no trace of potentially off-putting haughtiness; both are visible minorities and a stark contrast to the succession of dour former politicians who held the post in previous eras. DoubleBlue (Talk) 19:01, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Clarkson is such an institution that, when I read the part about her being a visible minority, I had to go look up her page to see why! I had never even thought about it before. --Westendgirl 20:22, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Templates

Could some of you please watchlist Template:Canada infobox? Anon users have already edited the box twice to list Michaëlle Jean as the current GG even though Adrienne C is still in office until September 27. It's been reverted both times, but I wouldn't put it past people to keep changing it. The more people we have keeping an eye on it, the better. Bearcat 19:55, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I am watching it. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 20:00, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Controversy

I don't think this section is very accurate. The PM said her appointment had nothing to do with political motives and the political scientist said Quebecois will not care about who's the GG.[1] It's been over twenty years since we've had a GG from Quebec and most knew it would be a Quebecker this time. How is that controversial? DoubleBlue (Talk) 22:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Some accused Martin are choosing someone from Quebec to gain support from then. Also, some believed that Jean was a token pick, with the emphasis on token. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 22:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Just a quick note on my rewording of the Jeanne Sauvé reference: a Fransaskois who moves to Montreal does not become Québécois; she becomes "a Fransaskois living in Montreal". The provincial francophone subgroups are defined by province of birth more than province of adult residence. (See French Canadian for further info.) It's potentially confusing to represent this accurately, but the fact that Sauvé's political career was associated with Quebec doesn't change the fact that she wasn't Québécois (in the same way that Paul Martin is Franco-Ontarian and not Québécois, even though his career has been also associated with Montreal), so I've changed the wording to "from Quebec". Bearcat 00:55, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I have no problems with it (since, IMHO, you are more knowledgable in this subject than I am). Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:04, 9 August 2005 (UTC)


you know that canada is in trouble when it appointing a Qubec separatist to be the ispo facto head of government in canada. it is a sad time for the state of the nation when it comes to this to keep the liberal party in power.

Tradition

Ok, I found this from the main GG article: "The monarch appoints the Governor General on the advice of the Prime Minister of Canada. From 1867 to 1952, every Governor General was a subject of the United Kingdom and a member of the aristocracy. The last British Governor General was Harold Alexander, 1st Viscount Alexander of Tunis, who served from 1946 to 1952. Since Vincent Massey's appointment in 1952, the position has been held only by Canadians. Moreover, by tradition, the post has been held alternately by English-Canadians and French-Canadians. Beginning in 1967, the Prime Minister has forwarded the Queen a single name when proposing a vice-regal appointment; previously a list of several names had been given to the Queen." Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:16, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Just a thought, is there any precedent for removing a GG after they have been appointed and before their term has completed! HJKeats 01:31, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
GGs have open-ended terms: they serve until they die or until the Queen replaces them with a new GG. The "five-year term" you often hear about is merely a recent tradition. Indefatigable 02:31, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Dual citizenship

I moved the trivia that Jean holds dual citizenship from the controversy section to the Appointment section where it mentions all the the other trivia like entire family is of non-Canadian birth. I see an anon recently duplicated the same fact to the biography section, where it also makes sense (though I personally feel it's uninteresting). I'm sure even Jacob Two-Two would think it's redundant and repetitive to say the same thing two times and twice identical info. Where does it best belong? DoubleBlue (Talk) 05:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Removed the duplicate reference and put it somewhere where you think it is best. We have to mention it, but I do not care where. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:49, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I honestly don't have a preference. Each place make some sense to me. DoubleBlue (Talk) 05:52, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Let's see about the others and their input on this mattter. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:58, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it's controversial, I've listened to both 580 CFRA here in Ottawa, and CFRB 1010 in Toronto this past weekend, and everyone is taking about it, it's more of an issue than her being an alleged seperatist. --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 01:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't there also a problem in the fact that Haitian are not allowed to keep their citizneship if they hold military or politicla office - and in Jean's case she is the head of Canada and the Canadian military ? Dowew 21:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I am sure Haiti will find a way to bestow honoary citizenship to her, since I think Haiti will probably ignore this since this is some good news for them in a very, very long time. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:49, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
It's not the Haitian citizenship, but the French republican citizenship. She lost her Haitian citizenship because of Duvaliers. Here the text of the French Civil Code:
Article 23-8 du Code civil (L. n° 73-42 du 9 janv. 1973)
Perd la nationalité française le Français qui, occupant un emploi dans une armée ou un service public étranger ou dans une organisation internationale dont la France ne fait pas partie ou plus généralement leur apportant son concours, n'a pas résigné son emploi ou cessé son concours nonobstant l'injonction qui lui en aura été faite par le Gouvernement.
L'intéressé sera, par décret en Conseil d'État, déclaré avoir perdu la nationalité française si, dans le délai fixé par l'injonction, délai qui ne peut être inférieur à quinze jours et supérieur à deux mois, il n'a pas mis fin à son activité.
Lorsque l'avis du Conseil d'État est défavorable, la mesure prévue à l'alinéa précédent ne peut être prise que par décret en conseil des ministres.
In French we put that in the controversy section. See fr:Michaëlle Jean.--Staatenloser 15:05, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

New controversy

I saw someone added a new controversy today, the article about René Boulanger. I added the fact that Boulanger's purpose is to make English Canada angry about Lafond and that they reject the candidature of Michaëlle Jean in order to reinforce separatist movement in Québec. Maybe the Globe and Mail doesn't mention that, bu Boulanger did, in Le Devoir today.
If my English wording is not good enough, I please you to correct my text!--Staatenloser 18:35, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I can look it over and see if the English is right. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:36, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Many of the critics are saying Paul Martin was "incompetent" when he chose Jean for GG. I don't think he was, infact, I believe he chose Jean because he knew her husband, Jean Lafond, was a pro-Seperatist figure. If you look at it, what a great choice it must have been for Martin to choose someone with seperatist ties. Along with former Bloc Quebecois member Jean LaPierre, it would seem as if the seperatists have a tight loop around the Liberal Party, and can insure that Quebecois needs will come above most. Win-Win for the seperatists, but also perhaps may insure the Liberals will gain support in Quebec? I maybe completly wrong, of course, but thats just my view on the issue. Anyone agree or disagree? Capt.Nero

Do you have sources from the CBC, Globe or Mail or any major Canadian newspaper stating this fact? While it is not wrong to have an opinion, but in order to include this possbility in the article itself, we need sources. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:41, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

No Zscout, my opinion is simply just that, an opinion. I don't have any sources or columnists that would support my point of yet, however, I have listened into political commentary on CH a Hamilton, Ontario based broadcast station, and one of the commentataters mentioned something similar to what I said about Jean LaPierre. Capt.Nero

I am sure that once it gets closer to her investure, we could hear more about it. Though, as mention above, I think her citizen status is coming more into question than this issue is. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

This whole fucking thing is just absurd. So Jacques Rose built them a bookshelf. Big fat hairy whoopdefuckingdoo. We live in a country in which the right to a private ballot is inviolable; no Canadian is ever obliged to reveal how he or she voted in an election or referendum. [******* ******] really needs to **** off and die now. </rant-off> Bearcat, who can POV on a talk page if I want to 06:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Bearcat, the hell are you doing? Do you know that making death threats carry legal consequences?

How do you kick people out of wiki?--Esto 04:08, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

What kind of oxygen do you have to be breathing to read what I wrote and interpret it as a death threat? Stow the attitude, dude. Bearcat 09:16, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Bearcat, I don't think there is proof to support that these accusations are all accusations being made by the Conservatives. It could be the Conservatives, Quebec seperatists, or a combination of both. I personnally believe both the Cons, and the seperatists are spinning their bullshit, but thats just me. Capt.Nero

Need for sources

It seems to me to be pretty important to make sure we have sources (actual citations) for all information in the article on the "controversy." I have removed the following pending a cite:

She was seen in a video documentary toasting in a Montreal bar with several hardline separatists "to independence", and suggesting that Quebec should start a revolution to achieve it's goal.

Could the writer of this (or anyone) please provide a citation (newspaper article, name of documentary, etc.) for it? Sunray 17:25, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

On Vigile.net, there is an article from La Presse : La pression monte d'un cran sur la nouvelle gouverneure générale (August 17th), which states what she said in the movie/book:
"l'indépendance, ça ne se donne pas, ça se prend"
Independance, it can't be given, it must be taken. Lafond also said:
"Alors, un Québec souverain? Un Québec indépendant? Oui, et j'applaudis des deux mains et je promets d'être de tous les défilés de toutes les Saint-Jean"
So, an independent Québec? Yes, and I applaud, and I swear to be at every procession of every St. John/St-Jean.
Note that when people was toasting to independence, if I'm not wring, Michaëlle Jean added "aux indépendances", to independences, the plural form. Interesting.--Staatenloser 15:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your good work in tracking down a source. I think it is interesting information that should be in the article to give a full picture, so will put it back. Sunray 19:43, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Representation

This is somewhat interesting. I don't know if it deserves a place in the article. But Jean is connected or represents more minorities and groups than any past Governors General (in no specific order):

  1. The Monarchy
  2. Quebecers
  3. Blacks
  4. Immigrants
  5. Refugees
  6. Women
  7. Mothers
  8. Baby-boomers
  9. Non-Europeans
  10. Public Broadcasters
  11. Filmmakers
  12. Young people
  13. Carribean/Haitian People
  14. The people
  15. The CBC
  16. Adoptive parents
  17. Bilinguals

Can you think of more? Colipon+(T) 03:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Number one, she represents Queen Elizabeth II. The rest is all POV. --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 20:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Governor General of Canada box

I notice that the right hand box with her picture, personal and career details and Rank etc. nowhere states that it deals with the Governor General of Canada. This could be confusing for people who come to one of the Governors General for some other reason (author John Buchan for example) and wonder what the box is there for and what Rank is being denoted. Dabbler 19:39, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

De facto/ de jure

Unless there is a subtlety of Canadian constitutional law, which I have failed to understand, Jean is the DE JURE and NOT the DE FACTO head of state. In other words, although she is the head of state by law (jure), she does not actually exercise the power in fact (facto), which is done by the cabinet, or more specifically the Prime Minister.

The Queen is the de jure head of state, and because the governor general performs nearly all the Queen's duties, she is the de facto head of state. There are many examples around the world of heads of state without political power. The office with political power (in Canada's case, the prime minister) is the head of government. Indefatigable 17:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


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