Talk:Meredzhi (village)

Güldenstädt

Güldenstädt indeed does indicate Meredzhi among Ingush villages while opposing it to the Chechens, page 242: "(Селения и округа) Махки, Хамха, Таргем, Аги, Картуй, Цулуй, Бештуй, Азик, Тимгай, Лалах, Хани, Таш, Арцхой, Салгаи, Фалхал, Герек, Малар, Джайрах, Баин, Ижел, Обин, Дохергиш, Арапе, Берех, Кушти, Кала, Накаст, Бархан, Тори, Гапай, Галай, Алкун, Гагай, Целх, Датах, Арште, Игер, Ляшк, Желаш, Галашки, Ахкинюрт, Ахка, Махал, Бошто, Мереджи, Терли. Все эти кистинские селения и округа расположены вдоль рек Кунбелей, Сунджа и Асай. Они состоят между собой в хороших отношениях, так же как и с Вапи, которые живут на реке Макул. Народы, которые живут возле прочих рек, впадающих в Сунджу, составляют другую партию, которая настроена против этой и которую обычно называют чеченской." Bronvesky based on this snippet, indicated Meredzhi as Ingush in page 166. Bronvesky also based off many things in his book on the information he got from Güldenstädt. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 18:52, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Yet again you fail to provide evidence that Guildenstedt called them Ingush, where in this text does he refer to them as Ingush? and how do you know that Bronevsky referred to this text when he said they are Ingush? Bronevsky also refers to Meredzhi as a Karabulak village when referring to Guildenstedt's text. We already have Bronevsky saying that Meredzhi are Ingush in this article. Guildenstedt however doesn't refer to them as Ingush, i don't know how many times i have to explain this to you. You have repeatedly done original research when it comes to Guildenstedt and Ingush.

All Guildenstedt says is that these villages belong to random Kist villages, check the footnotes of page 242, the last one (E) and read the text. Bronevsky refers to Merezhi as Ingush on page 166 but on page 156-157 where he quotes and cites Guildenstedt he separates Meredzhi from Ingush and actually writes down exactly what Guildenstedt wrote i.e he doesn't include Meredzhi as Ingush.

This is why i mentioned that Bronevsky referred to Gligvi as Chechens before because its from his writing not Guildenstedt, i suggest you read page 242 and its footnote again before undoing my edit. Goddard2000 (talk) 19:17, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

If we look at Güldenstädt's list, you can't dispute that practically all villages that are listed are Ingush villages. There's no doubt about this, since he even attributes them with the Angusht and Sholkhi groups AND separates (opposes) them from the Chechen group as clearly pointed out on page 242. Footnote E doesn't say that these villages belong to random Kist villages, don't make up stuff please. Bronevsky simply first enlisted all Kist Districts according to Güldenstädt in 156-157 and then in page 166 based on the information from the same Güldenstädt, he mentioned Meredzhi as Ingush. This is clear as day and you're trying to claim that it's original research which is hilarious, and lastly Bronevsky didn't refer to Meredzhi as Karabulak. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:34, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand why you're using Bronevsky's source for Guildenstedt, have your read these books? Bronevsky in the same sections where he refers to Meredzhi as Ingush also gives his own opinions and descriptions. He describes the phenotype of Ingush, he explains what Ingush call Chechens, he gives names of certain tribes and clans not mentioned by Guildenstedt etc etc. Bronevsky didn't translate Guildenstedt's book, he mentioned him and then wrote his own thing. Goddard2000 (talk) 19:33, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

@WikiEditor1234567123 He never attributes Meredzhi to Angusht or Sholkhi groups, footnote E literally says "In the Pallas edition, an incomplete list of settlements is placed at the end of the section on Kists", this means that these villages were part of an incomplete list that weren't included in any okrugs (although some were later like the Meredzhi village which was a seperate okrug under Karabulak okrug).

Bronevsky enlisted Kist districts (while quoting Guildenstedt) on page 156-157 as you noted but for some reason you ignore the fact that Bronevsky didn't include Meredzhi as Ingush in this list but actually placed them after Chechen and Karabulak okrugs. Lets check the page where Bronevsky does mention Meredzhi as Ingush shall we? page 166 lets see what he says in this section, he mentions Pallas (Guildenstedt never mentioned him), he mentions how many men Ingush can put up, he mentions the geology of Ingush clans. Right after that he mentions Karabulaks and then he mentions Chechens. Can't you see that this is a separate text entirely? he's not quoting Guildenstedt here, you are only showing how ignorant you are when it comes to these sources. Goddard2000 (talk) 20:45, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

First of all refrain from making personal attacks by claiming I'm ignorant. Since you aren't gonna agree with me, I think I found the solution for this dispute. As I have mentioned previously, most of the villages mentioned in the list by Güldenstädt are Ingush, so how does this text sound like "In the second half of the 18th century (1770s), the German researcher J. A. Güldenstädt mentioned Meredzhi in a list with predominantly Ingush villages which he opposed them with Chechen"? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 15:16, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I am afraid it is still original research, you can mention "opposed them with Chechens" (although i am personally against including politics) in the article if you want. Why not keep Kist? you could link the Kistin article which is very fair to both Chechens and Ingush so the reader can judge by himself. Also apologies for the personal attack, I admit it got a bit personal there. Goddard2000 (talk) 16:11, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Even if the author used the term Kist (which he actually says is used by the Ingush interchangeably), on page 242 Güldenstädt lists Meredzhi among Ingush villages: "(Селения и округа) Махки, Хамха, Таргем, Аги, Картуй, Цулуй, Бештуй, Азик, Тимгай, Лалах, Хани, Таш, Арцхой, Салгаи, Фалхал, Герек, Малар, Джайрах, Баин, Ижел, Обин, Дохергиш, Арапе, Берех, Кушти, Кала, Накаст, Бархан, Тори, Гапай, Галай, Алкун, Гагай, Целх, Датах, Арште, Игер, Ляшк, Желаш, Галашки, Ахкинюрт, Ахка, Махал, Бошто, Мереджи, Терли." - all of these are located in Ingushetia and connected to the Ingush (with he single the exception of Terli). So 99% are Ingush wich means that Meredzhi is listed among Ingush villages by Güldenstädt. This fairly can and should be specified in the article. Muqale (talk) 05:47, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

He used Kist for all Nakh peoples and it doesn't matter if the majority in the list of Kist villages are today Ingush, Guildenstedt referred to Salgan village in this list as part of Galgai okrug (which was under Chechen okrugs), Galashki, Alkun, Dattakh, Arshte, Terli, and Meredzhi weren't referred to as Ingush either. He only referred to them as Kist and as i have shown time and time again this list didn't refer to a certain district, it was just random Kist villages in an unfinishised list as the footnote E points out ("In the Pallas edition, an incomplete list of settlements is placed at the end of the section on Kists"). Referring to this list as Ingush or "among Ingush villages" when he never referred to them as Ingush is original research. Goddard2000 (talk) 20:24, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

He indeed used Kist for all Nakh nations, based on the initial name of the Kisteti district in Ingushetia. But this is besides the point. In this case he specifially uses the word to refer to Ingush villages as the list shows. You say Pallas placed it at the end, well in the footnotes of p. 243 it says that Güldenstädt himself actually placed this list right after the Ingush section. Let look at the list again: About 45 villages are mentioned on that page and all of the, are in Ingushetia. Name me a Chechen village in this list besides Terli? If they are all random villages, why are no known Chechen villages named and why are all o them located in Ingushetia? Muqale (talk) 21:26, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Guildenstedt referred to all of Nakh lands as Kisteti, you forgot to mention an important part of footnote on page 243 where the author writes "the next villages and places belong to this or that Kist district" i.e to several different districts which i have mentioned to Wikieditor and yes it says after the Ingush section, what of it? if they were identified as Ingush wouldn't they be included IN Ingush section?). The author clearly identifies the Meredzhi village in this text later on as the "Meredzhi okrug" below the Karabulak okrugs, i don't know why this is so hard to understand for you. The village has been identified below Karabulak okrugs, the village was put in a list which Guildenstedt said "belonged to different Kist okrugs". This is as clear as day, what you want to do is write "in this list most villages are today mostly in Ingushetia btw" trying to hint at something Guildenstedt never hinted at. If you want to say that most villages in this list are Ingush today then mention the names of these villages in a footnote and link them to articles of these villages where the author can click and check for themselves. Otherwise it is clear original research as you are trying to imply this list was Ingush and therefore Meredzhi has to also be Ingush.

Galgai Okrug is classified as a Chechen okrug, you can check on the commentary list by the author on page 407 (note 272) where the author Atalikov (who studied Guildenstedt's original writings) disagrees with Guildenstedt's classification. The note below it mentions Salgan as well. Also since your friend Wikieditor likes Bronevsky i can also mention that Bronevsky when quoting Guildenstedt directly mentioned Galgai okrug as Chechen. Goddard2000 (talk) 21:43, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Again you are trying to imply that because he calls the villages Kist and not Ingush, they therefore are not Ingush even though they are located in Ingushetia? Even though on page 36 he starts the paraghraph with the words "The Ingush or Kisti district the first nation I came across..." and a on page 37 writes that they call themselves Galga? Why would then the term Kisti not imply Ingush when actually listing Ingush villages? Muqale (talk) 21:50, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Now you are juggling his writing and putting them together without context, this is dishonest. Guildenstedt refers to Ingush as Kisti so what? he does the same to Chechens, he refers one of the easternmost villages (Mairtup which was the capital of the Michkizi tribe) as a Kist village, does this suddenly mean we can use Guildenstedt's writing and claim Mairtup is Ingush? If you want to talk about page 36 then can you elaborate on which villages in this list live in the actual territory where he described the Ingush living on? between the sources of Terek-Sunzha and Kumbelei in the north. I asked of you both to identify even 1 Karabulak village in this territory but you ignored, could you explain how Meredzhi lived in this described territory? because in my entire life i have always assumed Meredzhi lived east of the Fortanga river. So please dont cut and paste texts without context from different pages in order to create an argument. The footnote you mentioned on page 243 (where he says these villages are in different Kist okrugs) and the okrug descriptions is all we need. How can you even claim that all these villages are Ingush according to Guildenstedt? he refers to Meredzhi in this list as separate from Angusht/Little Sholkha on page 243, he mentions Salgan as part of Galgai okrug as part of Chechens (not Ingush) etc. Goddard2000 (talk) 22:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

1) The Galgai okrug is in the area of Assa river + he says the Ingush or Kists call themselves Galga. Explain where the Chechen come in here? I have not read anything in the text that links them to the Chechens aside from the footnote clarification which shows it to be an error. And if you say that Bronevksy did indeed copy this based on Güldenstädt, than why is him mentioning Meredzhi as part of the Ingush not also based on Güldenstädt? Would this not mean that Güldenstadt did indeed mention Meredzhi as part of the Ingush? (Meredzhi is also east of the Assa river)

2) So you accept Meredzhi being seperate from the Angusht/Little Sholkha, but not Akka and Nashakh? Fair enough. Muqale (talk) 23:05, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

The author (Atalikov) says that Guildenstedt's classification of Galgai okrug as Chechen is wrong, Guildenstedt himself never said it's wrong. According to Guildenstedt the Galgai okrug is classified as Chechen similarly as Meredzhi is classified as a Karabulak okrug. It doesn't matter what i accept or do not accept, Guildenstedt simply did not refer to Meredzhi as Ingush, he did say Akka and Nashakh was part of Little Sholkhi and was called "Little Angusht" by Russians (due to its proximity). We are not arguing whether he was right or wrong, i personally believe Guildenstedt didn't accurately portray the area geographically, obviously Galgai wasn't part of Chechen okrugs in my opinion, same as Akka and Nashakh was probably just placed as little Sholkhi due to it sharing a border with Ingush clans and having good connections with Angusht (which by Guildenstedts description was clearly the modern Tara Valley where Angusht originated). This is my theory but it doesn't matter here. I am not planning on adding this footnote to Wikipedia, me and Wikieditor have already talked about it and i decided to not include it since it is unnecessary.

As for Bronevsky, you have clearly not read mine and Wikieditors discussion in here, first of all there is a difference between Bronevsky quoting Guildenstedt and Bronevsky making his own notes. Bronevsky quoted Guildenstedt's text where he said Meredzhi is a Karabulak Okrug. Then 5 pages later Bronevsky writes his own thing, and describes Chechens, Ingush, Karabulaks in his own writing, he refers to their appearance, geography etc and only then in the Ingush section does he mention Meredzhi. So if you want to use Bronevsky as a secondary source for Guildenstedt then you have to mention the part where Bronevsky quotes Guildenstedt, not the part where he writes his own thing. Otherwise like i told Wikieditor you will have mentions of Ingush appearance, "Mountain gligvi" being Chechen, Ingush calling Chechens "Nacha" etc. Goddard2000 (talk) 01:13, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Census

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmattulahi wa barakatuh @Goddard2000! I suggest removing statements that Orstkhoi villages had Ingush/Chechen population in articles based on censuses because according to a WP:SECONDARY source (A. Tsutsiev), Orstkhois were written down as Ingush and Chechens in the following censuses after 1865. Best regards, WikiEditor^123… 17:16, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Waaleykum Salam, why does it matter? I'm not against including Tsutsiev saying that Orstkhoi's were written down as both Chechens and Ingush but why would we remove the censuses? you and I have argued the ethnicity of Orstkhoy many times and we both know that Orstkhoy have been referred to and called themselves both Chechen and Ingush before 1865. Goddard2000 (talk) 01:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Not necessarily remove the censuses but the text that they were Ingush/Chechen according to this or that census. Regarding Orstkhoys, check my proposal in the talk page please. WikiEditor^123… 04:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand, there is no controversy in saying that the population of a certain village or town was identified as Chechen or Ingush. I think they should stay, especially now when Meredzhi is being restored as a settlement, we will probably have another population census in 2030-2031 with Meredzhi being included so i think the ethnicity of the settlement from previous censuses are relevant to this article. Censuses always come with controversy, especially in Russia, even today there are Orstkhoy who identify as neither Chechen or Ingush who want to be on the census in 2021 and the population of Ingushetia and Chechnya is believed to be exaggerated in every census. Goddard2000 (talk) 07:23, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

But the thing is that censuses are WP:PRIMARY sources and we should use WP:SECONDARY sources for them. The secondary source says that after 1865 deportation they were included (forcefully?) either in Ingush or Chechen. This means that the ethnicity is uncertain. WikiEditor^123… 07:34, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Who said we shouldn't? we aren't misusing the primary source are we? as far as i know primary sources are allowed to be used as the link you posted shows. If your Secondary source (Tsutsiev) says they were labeled as Chechens and Ingush after 1865 in the censuses then what of it? why does it require us to remove the census saying they are Chechens? I don't understand your logic, we know from 18th century sources and before 1865 that Orstkhoi were labeled as both Chechen and Ingush. As I said in my previous comment i don't mind using secondary sources like Tsutsiev. We could write a note after the current demographic text like this: "According to Tsutsiev after 1865 Orstkhois were written down as Chechens and Ingush on the National censuses". To delete them however makes no sense in my opinion. Goddard2000 (talk) 09:13, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion seems to have halted, you mind if I bring up a middleman to settle this? WikiEditor^123… 17:10, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I honestly think it would be a waste of time. Goddard2000 (talk) 00:30, 18 January 2024 (UTC)