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Merge proposal

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Oppose merge, would prefer to expand this article. This gadget isn't really a hackamore or a bit or a "humane bitless" design. Not on my priority list to expand, but I think it can be given a couple more paragraphs, and should stay separate from the others. Which is why I broke it out in the first place. Montanabw(talk) 06:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

History

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I made some changes to the history section. Here is why. Invention and patent are not necessarily the same. A patent in the USA tells you little or nothing about patents in other countries. Patents are published documents, like print journal articles, so an access date is unnecessary. --Una Smith (talk) 19:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Design proposals" need explanation. --Una Smith (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? I'll look at your edits. I am cool with you finding an actual date for the invention of the mechanical hackamore, the stuff on patents was as close as I could get, it's a guess, but I can't find any references to these gadgets prior to the 1950s, with patents showing up in the 1940s, I am guessing that people probably were playing with the design as much as a decade or two earlier, but without proof, we are in WP:NOR territory, and given how bad the edit warring is getting, I am not about to o there. The irony here is that I don't like these gadgets, won't own one, won't ride in one (unless I have to on someone else's horse) and really have no idea why I am even working on this article exceot that it doesn't really belong in the other two. Feel free to expand on this article, particularly if you can find more photos (given that in the USA more western than English riders use them, a photo of a jumper isn't the greatest lead image.) Montanabw(talk) 05:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I like what you did, works for me. No changes. Montanabw(talk) 05:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is a "design proposal"? --Una Smith (talk) 05:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clarified language. Was trying not to say "patent" 10,000 trillion times in the same sentence. You know, sparkling prose. But if insufficiently synonymous, then will adjust to make it simpler. Montanabw(talk) 05:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

English hackamore

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I contributed the term "English hackamore", but as far as I know the term is not used by English riders; rather, it is (or was) used in the western US to distinguish other bitless bridles from the bosal hackamore. More research needed here. --Una Smith (talk) 05:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, never been used in my part of out west, we call it a mechanical hackamore or a hackamore bit, and even the people who don't know the correct term still don't say "English hackamore" because virtually NO ONE who rides English out here would think of using such a crude piece of headgear, headgear we associate with Dude Ranches, some rodeo and O-Mok-See competitors, and the like. Certainly I have never seen the term in places like Western Horseman magazine (but I haven't read every issue over the last 20 years, either, so can't prove a negative). I"m a fourth-generation Montanan, hung with a lot of different "cliques" of horse people, and I have never heard the term actually come out of anyone's mouth. So I can say that I'm pretty sure we don't use it in the Inland West. In fact, I can't think of any place I've seen the term, other than some web site I've found in the past week or so since I broke out this article that described a design of mechanical hackamore with all leather noseband/curb straps and short shanks as an "English Cavesson" like it was a whole separate thing. Frankly, I never ever saw an English rider in anything but a bitted bridle until sometime in the mid to late 1980's, maybe; whenever I first came across the concept of the jumping cavesson. Might even have been the 1990's. As far as westerners know (and I've done assorted horse stuff all over much of the west, BTW), western-style riding was the only style that used to ever used hackamores or mechanical hackamores here in the states other than a few show jumper sorts until the whole bitless fad thing got started. Cross-unders may have been an east coast thing? And modern California, well so many fads start there, who knows? Montanabw(talk) 05:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Googling "English hackamore" (including quotes in the search term) returns over 3000 hits; inspecting them reveals the term occurs in the United States (can't say not elsewhere, because not all the world is online) and refers to a mechanical hackamore with (English style) flat leather and fleece on the noseband; the shanks can be short or long. Two brand names: Korsteel and Weatherbeeta. --Una Smith (talk) 06:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that seems to be it, a modification of the cowboy version into something softer and somewhat more humane than the typical chain-under-the-jaw units that are most often sold out here. Weatherbeeta is actually, I think, an Australian company (they are affiliated with Bates Saddles, I think) and Korsteel promotes itself as sort of a Euro-tack company, but don't know where they are out of. Both definitely more English than Western equipment mfg, though. IN fact, I think an "English Hackamore" is what is in the photo leading the article. Montanabw(talk) 08:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've seen one of those in real life. A place I used to ride had a rescue horse with bad teeth, and the owner always used a traditional mechanical hackamore with long shanks on him. But she also had one of those bunny-slipper things that she used on another old horse. I don't remember exactly, but I think the shanks were much shorter. (Ironically, he was one of those horses that even a beginner could ride with reins on a standard halter--both exceedingly calm and lame in all four legs.) I'm sure she bought it at a used tack place ("Thrifty Horse"); I've learned an incredible amount about tack by seeing things there, thinking "what the hell is that", and looking them up.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Source material

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parking here for later use:

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