Talk:Meša Selimović/Archives/2015/August

here we go again

Selimovic is usually described as a "Yugoslav writer" in sources [1] and quite often as a "Bosnian Muslim writer" [2] (which also says "one of the finest writers in Serbo-Croatian". Which isn't to deny that some sources call him a "Serbian Muslim" or such, but in this context, "Yugoslav writer" is about the most neutral description one can get. The nuances can be explained in text.

And he wrote in Serbo-Croatian.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:00, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

And actually there's a notice on top of this page which says: "By a long-standing consensus, and a Wikipedia guideline, Selimović is defined as a "Yugoslav writer" in the lead section, as his (disputed) ethnic affiliation is not directly relevant for his notability as a writer. Please review the talk page archives for endless debates on the subject before starting a new one.".Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:01, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

'I COME FROM A MUSLIM FAMILY FROM BOSNIA, BUT BY ETHNICITY I AM A SERB. I BELONG TO SERBIAN LITERATURE' - Mehmed "Mesa" Selimovic

This is a response to the "here we go again" post.

Mehmed's ethnic affiliation is directly relevant for his notability as a writer because his works deal with ethnic questions in the Balkans. Mehmed declared himself to be a Serb, a writer of the Serbian language, and a member of Serbian literature specifically because he knew that people would try to play him off as a member of the invented ethnicities (Bosniak, Muslim by nationality, Montenegrin, Bosnian) that Tito was pushing for to further break apart and split up the Serbs. Mehmed wrote in Serbian, and he explicitly stated so! Here is a letter he wrote to the SERBIAN academy of Sciences and Arts that he recorded in his book "Sećanja": "Potičem iz muslimanske porodice iz Bosne, a po nacionalnoj pripadnosti sam Srbin. Pripadam srpskoj literaturi" -> TRANSLATION: I COME FROM A MUSLIM FAMILY FROM BOSNIA, BUT BY ETHNICITY I AM A SERB. I BELONG TO SERBIAN LITERATURE

Selimovic was a Serb writer who was born into a Muslim family in Bosnia, and, like most Muslim intellectuals and writers living in Bosnia at the time (other examples beside Mehmed: Hasan Kikic, Skender Kulenovic, Camil Sijadic, etc.), realized that all "Muslims by nationality" are Serbs who were forced to convert to Islam by Turkish occupiers who stole their sons through a process known as Devshirme and impaled resistors to Islam. To write him off as anything other than a Serbian writer of Serbian literature in the Serbian language of Serb blood would be incredibly ignorant, and done (most likely) by people with an Anti-Serb agenda.

Selimovic's Serb Ethnicity was a key point mentioned in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic in the International Court of Justice in the Hague.

Dukisuzuki (talk) 22:23, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Not sure if you're able to comprehend, but here are few facts to consider

1. Serbia was not a country during Selimović's life. Neither was Bosnia and Herzegovina. Yugoslavia was.
2. He was a partisan and a communist, and has fought for Yugoslav union in WW2 and thereafter
3. Selimović's declaration letter came in 1976, when he was 66, and it came as a result of conflicts and harrasment he had in Sarajevo
4. Serbian language is just a standardized variety of Serbo-Croatian, which is a linguistic unit.
5. Statements on trial of Slobodan Milošević are not a relevant, reliable source for wikipedia. Biographies by relevant, nuanced biographers, such as Hayden [3] or Crnković [4] are.

Do you really think you're the first editor who came here to demand that we coy to requests for his uniquely Serbian / Bosniak nationality (cross the unnecessary) spoken in angry rants? The archives are full just of that nationalist crap. More sane and neutral editors, where I unhumbly count myself, reached a tacit agreement to go for outside sources, downplay his ethnicity crap, and tell the bullies like yourself to fuck off. No such user (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Not sure if you're able to comprehend, but here are few facts to consider

1. Serbia was a country during Selimović's life for 19 years before Yugoslavia was (1910-1918 Kingdom of Serbia, 1918-1929 Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, 1929 SCS was renamed Yugoslavia)., And it was also one of the Federal Republics of Yugoslavia. This is why on the Yugoslav censuses, "Serb ethnicity" was an option, which Selimovic selected.
2. The majority of the members of the Partizans and the Communists were Serbs, being a Serb and being a partizan/communist was not mutually exclusive
3. Your implication that he changed nationalities from Bosnian to Serbian to spite Sarajevan (A city in which one third of the population was Serb) "harrasment" is ridiculous because he was not addressing his nationality in the letter, but rather his ethnicity, which is an unchangeable characteristic.
4. The Serbian language's standardization was devised by Karadzic in 1818, 17 years before the Croatian latin alphabet was standardized by Ljudevit Gaj, and 32 years before Serbo-Croatian was devised at the Vienna agreement. If you read Mesa Selimovic's books you would know that the modern standardized Serbian language is older than both modern standardized Croatian and Serbocroatian as he wrote a book discussing Karadzic's reforms. Also there are Croatian and Serbo-Croatian dialects that are not mutually understandable with the modern standardized Serbian that Selimovic wrote in, namely Cakavian and Kajkavian.
5. You say Biographies are reliable sources. Then read this excerpt from Selimovic's own autobiography "Sjecanja" that he wrote himself and you will find the following quotation: "Potičem iz muslimanske porodice iz Bosne, a po nacionalnoj pripadnosti sam Srbin. Pripadam srpskoj literaturi" -> TRANSLATION: I COME FROM A MUSLIM FAMILY FROM BOSNIA, BUT BY ETHNICITY I AM A SERB. I BELONG TO SERBIAN LITERATURE

You are clearly not a "sane and neutral editor" if you call me a bully and tell me to fuck off simply for adding relevant (the author's works deal primarily with ethnic questions in the Balkans) additional information and citations from the author's own autobiography to an article. Dukisuzuki (talk) 19:31, 21 August 2015 (UTC)