Talk:Meša Selimović/Archives/2012/December

Source review

Review of Sources Provided

Support Bosnian Identification

Yugoslavia: A History of Its Demise: A History of Its Demise - "The greatest modern novelist of the Bosnian Muslims, Meša Selimović,"

The Columbia Guide to the Literatures of Eastern Europe Since 1945: Albania - "Selimović, Meša (1910-1982) Bosnian Muslim novelist."

Making a Nation, Breaking a Nation: Literature and Cultural Politics in - "by the Bosnian Moslem author Meša Selimović"

Neutral

The Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina: Their Historic Development from.... - Source doesn't unambiguously refer to :Selimović as Bosnian

Ethnicity and Ethnic Conflict in the Post-Communist World - "For Selimović, to be Bosnian was to be Muslim" - Infers but doesn't unambiguously state that Selimović is Bosnian

Honouring Mesa Selimovic - "Although Bosniak by origin, Selimovic later embraced a Serbian identity", also a quote from Mesa himself "I come from a Muslim family in Bosnia, and I am a Serb by nationality....I equally respect my origin and my choice, because I am attached to everything that determined my personality and my work." - Calls Selmovic Bosnian, but points out that he identifies as Serbian

Additional sources

Support Bosnian Identification

German and Bosnian Voices in a Time of Crisis: Bosnian Refugees in ... - Page 177 - "Bosnian author Meša Selimović"

Bosnia-Herzegovina: The End of a Legacy - Page 3 - "literature by Bosnian authors, such as Ivo Andric and Mesa Selimovic"

White Stones and Fir Trees: An Anthology of Contemporary Slavic ... - Page 68 - "And a Bosnian, Mesa Selimovic, has just written a beautiful,"

Into the Heart of European Poetry - Page x - " the classic Bosnian writer Meša Selimović"

Neutral

Serbia, 3rd ed - "Meša Selimović (1910-82), a Bosnian Muslim by birth who explicitly claimed to be Serb by ethnicity" - Repeat claim found in "Honouring Mesa Selimovic" that while Bosnian, he identified as Serb

Notes from the underground: the cinema of Emir Kusturica - Page 11 "A distinguished writer from Bosnia, Mesa Selimovic, announced that he was a Serb of a Muslim faith" - Again, Mesa identifies as Serb

Blueprints for a house divided: the constitutional logic of the ... - Page 136 - "MeSa Selimovic, who identified himself as a Serbian writer even though he was of Muslim heritage" - Again, Mesa identifies as Serb

Results

1) A number of RSs refer to Selimović as Bosnian.

2) Few if any sources refer to Selimović as Serbian.

3) A number of sources note that Selimović self-identifies as Serbian.

Conclusion

This is a neat case cause it seems to pit "self-identification" against what a large majority of RSs say. Selimović says he's Serbian, most everyone else call him Bosnian.

Suggested outcomes in order of preference

1) Don't include "ethnicity" in the info box.

2) Is calling him a "Bosniak Serb" out of the question? Forgive me if this is a silly suggestion. I'm not super familiar with this region of the world.

3) Use Serbian in the infobox. Based on the logic that "self-identification" trumps pretty much everything else in ethnicity/race/gender/relgious identity issues, there appears to be a reasonable basis to call Selimović "Serbian", as that seems to be what he himself would have wanted to be called.

4) Put "Bosniak" in the infobox, with a note saying that most sources refer to him as a Bosnian & put "Serb", with a note saying that Selimović self-identified as such.

5) Continue bickering and edit warring

@Wüstenfuchs & WhiteWriter - I would look over these potential outcomes and see if there are any on which you can agree.

As a quick disclaimer, I'm completely ignorant of the subject at hand (i.e. MeSa Selimovic) and, as previously mentioned, fairly ignorant of the history of the region. Hope you guys can reach a conclusion! NickCT (talk) 22:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Bosnian is demonym. Bosniak is ethnicity. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I've changed my suggested outcomes accordingly. NickCT (talk) 00:27, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

You were wrong when changing your suggested outcomes. The sources say Bosnian not Bosniak. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

This might be somewhat off-topic, but I believe it will help to settle the matter. If you consider the previously disputed article on Ivo Andric (the Croat author who self-declared as Serb), I noticed the involved editors agreed on the fact that Andric's "native" ethnicity (as Croat), despite his subsequent self-identification, must have remained unchanged. And for this reason he is currently part of the Croats infobox (and even removed from the Serb one). If we should draw a parallel, Selimovic's "native" ethnicity must be Bosnian Muslim as synonymous with the Bosniak nation (basically only a name change, thus we are speaking of the same nation). A solution could therefore be to stress his Bosniak origin but alike describe the evidence of latter self-identification as Serb. Trying to obscure Selimovic's Bosniak roots altogether by simply referring to him as Bosnian constitutes POV in my opinion, since his (as well as Andric's) roots are not subject to personal opinion but fact.Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 00:50, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

There is no "native" and "non-native" ethnicity. Everybody has right to decide about their own ethnicity and when such declaration exists it is wrong to ignore it or deny it. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense. What were the two before their declarations then? Cherry picking either identification as the most definitive is simply POV. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 11:51, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

This is article about Meša Selimović not about his parents. Two of them also had the same right to decide about their own ethnicity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Don't avoid the question. What were Selimovic and Andric before their declarations? --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 12:20, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

No need for bad faith accusations. I thought you refered to Selimović's parents. I don't know about Andric who is irrelevant for this discussion. This is article about Selimovic.

The best possible way to determine what was someone's ethnicity is self-identification. If there are sources that in some period of his life, before or after identifying himself as Serb, Selimovic identified himself as Bosniak or some other ethnicity, then such information should be also added to the article. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Andric is very related as the circumstances are identical and yet the suggested edit implementations are different. In response to your prior reply, culture and ethnicity are inherited and learned. They can indeed be changed, but to suggest that something wasn't already present is absurd. Sources point out Andric was born to Croat parents, baptized a Roman Catholic, grew up in Bosnia, worked in Yugoslavia and later claimed to be Serb. Similarly Selimovic was raised a Bosnian Muslim, worked in Yugoslavia and also later claimed to be Serb. So again to simply put "Serb", "Bosniak", or "Croat" as the definitive answer would be done in complete ignorance of all the other factors at hand and flies in the face of neutrality. We don't get to personally decide and push our own POV as to what's the most definitive. Let the readers make up their own mind. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 19:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

The readers can not decide someones ethnicity. Only a person himself can decide about his own ethnicity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:46, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, as complicated as the issue is it must be approached with delicacy. In all fairness, one rarely encounters this kind of "ethnic confusion" among intellectuals in the West, nor the kind of heated discussion among editors on Wikipedia. Needless to say, we are dealing with a notorious "Balkan issue". I find it quite absurd to ignore the relevance of Selimovic's Bosniak origins, and the absorption of culture and social imprinting it implies, in favor of a self-declaration which in all honesty cannot omit his upbringing. After all, many of Selimovic's books dealt with various aspects of Bosniak life, written in a way I doubt any "real" Serb author could. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 20:16, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

People form an opinion based on the evidence at hand as they do with everything else. Portraying him as simply one or the other in ignorance of what is else at hand is as POV as one can get. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 22:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I'd go with 3, if he considered himself a Serb, then he is a Serb, simple as that. --Wüstenfuchs 08:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

NickCT, Voting is not a substitute for discussing. Also Wustenfuchs I'd love to hear you affirm this with Andric. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 11:51, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

@PRODUCER - I was merely pointing to solutions which seemed reasonable in my opinion. Not suggesting that we vote on them.

re Nonsense. What were the two before their declarations then? - Ethnicity is just a subjective interpretation of what group someone belongs with. The group a person identifies with can change. Perhaps Meša was Bosniak until he declared himself Serb.

re Cherry picking either identification ... is simply POV - Yeah. Agreed. Perhaps the Adric editors got it wrong. Or perhaps there was just more RS available pinning Adric to the Croat ethnicity. NickCT (talk) 12:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

@Praxis Icosahedron - re "A solution could .... self-identification as Serb." - Can I take that to mean you'd support the inclusion of both "Bosniak" and "Serb" with notes explaining the identifications (i.e. solution 4 described above)? NickCT (talk) 12:08, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

@Antidiskriminator " - re "Everybody has right to decide about their own ethnicity" - Hear hear! Self-identification is key. NickCT (talk) 12:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Why is everyone talking about Andrić, it's not about him. PRODUCER, please, see my talk with Praxis. --Wüstenfuchs 18:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

@NickCt & @Antidiskriminator. What I ment to say is simply that Selimovic was inarguably born into a Bosniak family and the article ought to be perfectly clear on that. I wasn't trying to claim either classification as more relevant or not, but both are equally much a fact. The man was born into a Bosniak family (fact#1) and latter self-declared as Serb in his letter (fact#2). As on how to classify Selimovic, I would preferably go with "Yugoslav" as per the article on Ivo Andric (which undoubtedly bears striking parallels). Staright off claiming Selimovic as either Serb or Bosniak has to be considered inflammatory in every case and should be avoided. It is also likely to bring stability to the article by precluding infuriated IP edits. In conclusion, I would lend my support primarily to solution no. 1, and secondly, to solution no. 4. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 20:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Self-identification is the path to follow here on wiki. Emir Kusturica is regarded only as Serb here on wiki, per its own comment. Pov pushing and nationalistic claims of some sides here pushed personal attitudes in side, but we should rely on self-identification. Also, in article, we should mention everything, but here, only infobox is in question. Option 3 for me. --WhiteWriter^speaks 20:58, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually the way you do it is by getting like-minded buddies (who are now topic banned for their disruptive editing) to drag out the discussion as long as possible at the talkpage [1], waiting until opposing editors and admins give up, and then sneaking in later and removing what you personally dislike in complete ignorance of the talkpage discussions and prior established consensus. [2]--◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 22:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense and bad faith construction. You are not the one who should talk about buddies here on Wikipedia. And putting here year and a half old meaningless edits is not good way to gain constructive agreement. Address the subject, and not personal opinions and thesis. --WhiteWriter^speaks 23:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I already addressed the subject. You want to make silly claims? Others reserve the right to refute them. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 23:06, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, then we are both on zero point now. Lets continue with constructive edits. --WhiteWriter^speaks 23:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

We should just stick with Yugoslav -- which is what he was. Most of his life was spent in Yugoslavia and he died in Yugoslavia. Yugoslav would encompass both Bosniak and Serbian ethnicity's. --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 22:58, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is also quite good for me... Further in article we can add more details about this. --WhiteWriter^speaks 23:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

He was first Austrian before his nationality became Yugoslav.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Here is one source which can maybe be useful for this discussion. Starts with the page 733.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, matica srpska would hardly classify as an independent "useful" source, for reasons much obvious. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 12:12, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Reliability of the source depends on the author, work and publisher.

1. The author is Duško Babić. He is the author of the textbooks for all four grades in High Schools of Serbia, managing director of Gymnasium of Filology in Belgrade where he lectures literature.
2. The publisher is the oldest cultural-scientific institution of Serbia which regularly publish its magazine for almost 200 years. The text deals precisely with this issue.
3. The work itself, i.e. nine pages article of Babić, is dedicated precisely to the ethnicity of Meša Selimović and his family, as well as his feelings about Bosnian Muslim ethnicity. The text is well written, with many cited sources, frequently cites Selimović's opinion about Bosniak ethnicity and ethnic origin of him and his family also using examples from his works. The text also presents information that Meša was atheist. Here is what, besides already mentioned points on this talkpage, Meša says himself:

Isn't it better for me to write what I know about myself while I am still alive, instead to allow other people to write about me what they don't know while I eat myself in the grave not being able to reply to them the way they deserve... Selimović family is originaly from Vranjska, on the border of Herzegovina and Montenegro, from Drobnjak clan, from Vujovići brotherhood.... for his father Meša positively claim "He was Serb by his national feelings"... Why would people close their eyes in front of the truth? That does not change anything like no shame is thrown on Muslims from Bosnia and Herzegovina if somebody points to their origin.....

link1" link 2 --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:22, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Still, would be this be regarded an independent source as it is safe to assume that proving Selimovic as a Serb somehow lies in the interest of the Serb nation, much as it does in the Bosniak one to disprove him as such. This in my opinion constitutes an apparent conflict of interest, and besides - as far as I can tell - there is no way to corroborate what is written in the book as the quote lacks an actual source and instead seems to be purely anecdotal. I do hope you understand that as far as a conflict of interest exists the qualifications and merits of the individuals involved cease to matter; you may possess a PhD in environmental sciences but the moment you begin to write about C02 emissions while being involved with an organization advocating nuclear power a conflict of interest is bound to arise and your credibility as an independent author will take a serious blow. This is not a matter of bad faith or discrimination but the obvious understanding that Bosniak/Croat/Serb sources must be perceived as the subject of conflict of interest in matters pertaining to sensitive subjects with extended ethno-politic ramifications in the region. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 20:00, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

• If you read the discussion at this talkpage you will notice that nobody could dispute that he himself said that he was Serb. The only argument against inclusion of his Serb ethnicity was "what was Selimović before he said he was Serb?". The question implied that Selimovic suddenly decided to change his Bosniak ethnicity to Serb regardless of his family Bosniak origin. I presented sources (written by Selimović himself, Mirko Kovač and above mentioned professor) who all say that Selimović's father was Serb and that Selimovic family belongs to Serb clan Drobnjaci.
• Its incorrect that "proving Selimovic as a Serb somehow lies in the interest of the Serb nation, much as it does in the Bosniak one to disprove him as such." Everybody has right to decide about their own ethnicity and when such declaration exists it is wrong to ignore it or deny it. Only Meša Selimović was entitled to say what was his ethnicity. It has nothing to do with interest of Serb or any other nation, nor with extended ethno-politic ramifications in the region. Somebody could see it as a rhetorical strategy of appeal to fear. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:45, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I can assure you I am not undertaking any sort of "rhetorical strategy". Those authors partaking in a subject arguably haunted by a conflict of interest is pretty obvious to anyone looking back at the last 20 years or so of Balkan history and historiography. Nonetheless, I concur with you that Selimovic's personal affections matter a great deal and so we should try to locate the original sjecanje invoked in your sources to corroborate what Selimovic wrote first-hand. Although Selimovic allegedly argued his father's self-identification as "Serb" such a statement would still be on behalf of Selimovic and not his father; unless there is any unequivocal primary evidence that Selimovic's father (and also mother, as well as his ancestral history) considered themselves, or indeed were, Serbs are we entitled to change his ethnic background as "Serb". I am certain Selimovic's Serbophile self-identification cannot single-handedly override his ethnic background as this would aggressively label his ancestors as something we are not sure they were. I am aware that Serbs overwhelmingly view the Bosniaks as a whole as historically degenerated Serbs so this discussion lacks intrinsic meaning to them, but may I kindly remind you that such theories only prevail in Belgrade (thus once more the wretched conflict of interest). It is quite obvious you are out to prove not only Selimovic's ethnic identity as Serb (agreeably) but also his ethnic background (highly questionable). So far all "evidence" is anecdotal and circumstantial, and if you should wish to convey anything non-Bosniak/Muslim about Selimovic's ethnic background (once more separate from identity) by using your sources may I urge you to underline it being "according to Selimovic himself". His father is not necessarily Serb simply because his stray son claims so, until actual resources are presented his ethnic background by default remains Bosniak/Bosnian much as David Beckham's is English until otherwise proved.Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 21:59, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

You can't be serious. Can you prove that Konrad Adenauer's father was German or that Charles de Gaulle's father was French? You went to far with this. If one felt like Serb, then he is a Serb. --Wüstenfuchs 14:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, if you can't prove one or the other the person by default remains as part of the nation he was born into. I haven't either seen any sources explicitly claiming that they were something else but German, and until then that is what their origin remains, German. By your logic, we should conclude Ivo Andric's origin as Serb simply because he declared him as such, but you fail to recognize that his declaration is a personal stance that cannot erase his Croat ancestry, which is in fact his presumed ethnic origin until sources to the contrary have been provided. In this regard, Selimovic's ethnic identity arguably seems to have been Serb, but there is no clear-cut source to support that his ethnic origin would have been the same. Therefore, he might have been a Serb author by identity, but not by origin. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 17:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I rest my case.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:11, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Likewise, I've never contested that Selimovic's identity appears to have been Serb, but going as far as to claim his entire origin as Serb is a whole another story, which I am not buying into at the moment. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 18:17, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

And besides, as far as Konrad Adenauer or Charles de Gaulle are concerned, the burden of proof to categorize their origin/background as something else but the apparent German and French lies with those who wish to do so, and not for the opposing side to prove that they were "really" French and German. The rationale for German and French ethnic backgrounds is the apparent; they possess German and French names and were born into a population were 99.9% of the people consider themselves German and French, by default. Likewise, Selimovic's name and birth belongs to the Bosnian Slavic Muslim Community (Bosniaks) and 95% of them consider themselves neither Croats nor Serbs but Muslims/Bosniaks (yes, even in a historic sense). Are you begging to grasp what presumption and appearance implies in this regard? Moreover, what it means to distinguish between origin and identity? Although Selimovic might have held personal views about the origin of his native community, these are by no means qualified as to form the basis of any wider conclusion. Similarly, I may contend that the town of my birth is the world's greatest place and much more beautiful than Paris will ever be, now would you use this as evidence that Paris, as per fact, is less beautiful? Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 18:51, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Considering the sources that Antidiskriminator presented, which I rate as reliable, his father was a Serb. Also, considering historical facts, there's no way his father was a Bosniak (it wasn't possible to declare as Bosniak). --Wüstenfuchs 18:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

It wasn't either possible for Bosnian Catholics and Bosnian Orthodox Christians to declare as Serbs or Croats in Astro-Hungarian Bosnia (census was conducted only with regard to religion), does this mean these ethnic groups did not exist? Oppressive policies do not eliminate ethnic groups! However, I am well familiar with the absurd pervasive argumentation amongst Croat and Serb nationalists that Bosniaks did not exist prior to 1993; when in fact merely an official name change took place (denouncing Yugoslav policies) and not the creation of a brand new nation as such. Muslim Bosnians had been a distinct community for as long as the Christian Bosnians. The absurd play with words and dates is ridiculous and malevolently used to push POV; Wustenfuchs is in the habit of striking bold edits to articles which have been stable for years prior to his rampage. May it be that you deliberately ignore to realize that consensus have taken years to build up and that they cannot be nullified by some simple foolish (recurring) agenda? You are trying to forcibly form a whole new classification of Selimovic as belonging to the "Serb" literature when you in fact cannot find a single Anglophone source which speaks of him as such. This is original research interwoven with a whole amount of POV. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 19:19, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Before we even continue with this nauseous subject, may I ask you to provide me with one single Anglophone source that describes Selimovic as born into a Serb family, and not a Muslim/Bosniak/Bosnian? Before you begin to exert yourself in vain have a look at the sources reviewed above. At a very minimum, it shall be written in the article that Selimovic was born into a Bosnian Muslim family.Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 19:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

And you may write all you like about Selimovic claiming his father as Serb in his work Sjecanje, although this is much like him putting words in his own father's mouth and has to be interpreted as according to Selimovic himself. My only demand is thus for it to be made clear that he was born into a Bosnian Muslim/Bosniak family/community, whatever you choose to write about him after that is fine for me. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 19:55, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't mind adding his information that his family was Bosnian Muslim (as every source says), but someone removed that he declared to be a Serb... why is that? Only info that he was born to a "Bosniak bey family" remained, and in this manner, someone ingeniously showed Selimović as he was Bosniak. --Wüstenfuchs 20:00, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, then it awkwardly appears we have no true dispute after all. If you look closer you shall see that the article explicitly states: Selimović argued that despite his Muslim roots (he was a descendant of a notable bey family,[4] he regarded himself as a Serb and a Serb writer.[5]. Hence, we clearly have both sides, him being inarguably born into the Bosnian Muslim community, on one hand, and on the other, him inarguably considering himself Serb. Where is the problem then? Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 20:06, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I (or we) created problem out of nowhere... my apologies... *blush* --Wüstenfuchs 20:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC)