Talk:Maya Soetoro-Ng

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This article was nominated for deletion on 12 July 2008. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Did her husband renounce his Canadian citizenship?

If not, he's a dual citizen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.90.95.165 (talk) 11:43, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

delete nomination

Against deleting. Clearly notable and there is precedent for the siblings of major political figures. (See Roger Clinton, Jr.) Doktor Waterhouse (talk) 06:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Against deleting. Clearly notable.--Utahredrock (talk) 06:24, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Against deleting. Same reason as above w_tanoto (talk) 19:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Maya's bio into a subsection of "Ann Dunham"?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

~~Please comment~~. — Justmeherenow ( ) 17:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who made this proposal? Where are the arguments in favor of it? See Talk:Lolo Soetoro#Merge proposal which also contains a merger that was not proposed by a supporter of it. Tvoz/talk 03:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

E-mail me and I'll divulge my real world identity. — Justmeherenow ( ) 04:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your real-world identity was not the question. You don't support the proposal, so why are you making it? Tvoz/talk 04:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To see what the consensus of WP contributors is about a possible merge. — Justmeherenow ( ) 05:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Against merge.--Utahredrock (talk) 06:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A note (specifically concerning a related matter). I've posted on the Admin noticeboard, "Can a proposal be made by an opponent to gauge the sense of the community?" — Justmeherenow ( ) 17:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Against merge she has shown enough notability and has made independent speeches and announcements. 63.76.234.250 (talk) 19:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Publication

Google Scholar gives me this listing:

Pacific History Bibliography 2007
V LUKER - The Journal of Pacific History, 2007 - informaworld.com
... R Reprint or new edition, with date of original publication or previous ... M Regional
and Resource Planning Soetoro, Maya K., Border pictures: hybrid narratives ...

Unfortunately, the linked journal site is one of those obnoxious things that requires payment/registration before it will even show you a TOC. Anyone have access to the journal; it seems possibly notable as a bibliographic mention, if we can figure out the real cite. LotLE×talk 19:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation and Keep

Certainly this article should be kept. I would never have known that she is a school teacher in Hawaii. Family Trees are always interesting, especially of Presidents.

And Can someone please add a pronunciation for this person's name?

Tbsmith (talk) 05:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added. —KCinDC (talk) 06:18, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The pronounciation is rather wrong. "Maya" part is okay, but Soetoro (alternatively spelled Sutoro in new Indonesian system - just like Soeharto and Suharto). The "o" is more like o in "pot", not in "beau". So, it should be "ɒ" instead of "oʊ" as stated in the article. This is how Indonesians pronounced the name, although I've seen Obama uses the pronounciation stated in the article. w_tanoto (talk) 19:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"brought an Asian American and Pacific Islander presence to the stage for the first time"?

What is that phrase supposed to mean? I find it hard to believe that she was the first AAPI person to speak at a Democratic National Convention, and if somehow that is the case why not just say that rather than use this strange phrasing? Maybe it means the first major AAPI speaker? —KCinDC (talk) 07:27, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

maybe it means for the 2008 convention. I am no expert at American politics (I am more to British politics). Does american always categorise Asian and Pacific Islanders as one entity? Because if not, maybe she should be stated as "Asian" only. I understand the border between Asia and Pacific in Indonesia is approximately the island of Sulawesi. Judging from the name, she is of Javanese descend.w_tanoto (talk) 19:30, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

She has absolutely nothing to do with the Pacific Islands! You may as well call her Australian or Pakistani! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.80.16.57 (talk) 22:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality

The nationality is stated as Indonesian and American. It is not possible as Indonesian law prohibit dual-citizenship. She is either American or Indonesian. From what I have heard in my school year in Indonesia, the nationality of a child follows his/her father's, but recently, I've heard Indonesia allows dual-citizenship until the person is 17 years of age after which s/he has to choose.--w_tanoto (talk) 19:10, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Umm I don't know why the nationality that we list should follow Indonesian law. There is a difference between nationality and citizenship.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:54, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Picture

This picture posted in Indonesian Wiki article is better. I am not sure how to post it to English wiki though. [1] w_tanoto (talk) 19:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, copyrighted images of living persons are not allowed due to availability of users to take a picture of the person and release the photo under a free license. If the picture you linked were to be uploaded to the encyclopedia, it would be speedily deleted due to unfree images of living people. miranda 05:48, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Buddhism

In the cited article for her mentioning Buddhism, Maya describes herself thusly, "Philosophically, I would say that I am Buddhist," when asked what religion she is by the NY Times reporter. Therefore, I don't think we should describe her as "a Buddhist," as in a noun (as opposed to an adjective, which is how she uses it). One's philosophy is not the same as one's religion, which I think she basically made clear by her answer, using the word "philosophically" to preface her response. I think we need to make this, and her, difference clear, unless or until we learn more about her. Beansandveggies (talk) 08:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Same thoughts as yours. Now wiki (talk) 05:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox: Nationality vs Citizenship

Shall we delete the Nationality section from the infobox? Some people, including myself, regards nationality and citizenship as the same thing. w.tanoto-soegiri (talk) 22:56, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do we know whether she holds dual citizenship? Are you sure (from your previous post) that Indonesian law prohibits it in all cases? Do we know whether U.S. law prohibits it for Indonesian nationals? I believe U.S. law and other nations' laws can differ vis-a-vis each other, and I believe such citizenship q's can depend on laws in force at time of birth, parents' status, even grandparents' status. In my opinion, after reading Wiki's "Nationality" page (nothing on Infobox: Person discussion page re Nationality vs. Citizenship), IF Maya is SOLELY a U.S. citizen, with no current legal status with Indonesia (including residency, i.e. Indonesian equiv of a green card, if one exists), then we could delete "Nationality" and just keep "Citizenship," listing it as American. But I don't think we know the answers to these q's. Does anybody? Beansandveggies (talk) 08:19, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I write the above as an American and as an ethnic studies major, understanding that we in the U.S. know what "Nationality" informally means (and that Maya certainly qualifies as "Indonesian American," while I qualify as "Mexican American"), but wondering whether we should be formal and cosmopolitan with the word "Nationality" for wiki readers from other countries. Thoughts? Beansandveggies (talk) 08:46, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To non-American readers, the use of both nationality and citizenship to mean different things is downright misleading, since they are both effectively understood (in the standard English language) as "the quality being a citizen of this or that country". "Ethnicity", "Ancestry","background", or even the much-too-used, much-too-ambivalent-centered notion of "race" are more adequate. In sight of the other comments, I changed the misleading word of "Nationality" to "Ethnicity". If it were to emerge that, despite current comments posted by Indonesians, Maya Soetoro-Ng were to hold dual nationality (ie citizenship to both the US and Indonesia), please change the Citizenship info. JanvonBismarck (talk) 15:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am certain that she will lost it upon reaching adulthood (17 year old in Indonesia). This is because dual-citizenship is not recognised in Indonesia (This pretty much explain my loss of Singaporean permanent resident status, as PRs have to join military service upon reaching certain age. If it is completed, that person will have full Singaporean citizenship, meaning a loss of Indonesian citizenship for me if I decided to join). US Law does not, and does not care if a person holds two citizenships as they recognise dual citizenship. The same goes to Australia: a close person to me was born as an Indonesian, but acquired Australian citizenship. As long as that person can hide his/her status as an Australian from Indonesian authority, s/he will be save. But if the person is found out by Indonesian authority, s/he will lost it. There is some method that this person use: use of Indonesian passport for travel between Indonesia and ASEAN countries, then get out of one of that ASEAN countries' Immigration, and re-enter using Australian passport and continue with the journey. As we speak, I am trying to upload a PDF file published by United States Office of Personnel Management Investigations Service, as I lost my original source. I will give the link after the upload is finished.w.tanoto-soegiri (talk) 10:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The download link I promised: [2] w.tanoto-soegiri (talk) 10:44, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

About citizenship vs nationality, I really have no opinion which one to use, but my view is that one of them should be deleted. In the PDF file I just uploaded, in page 12, it is said that Citizen is synonymous with national as citizenship is synonymous with nationality. w.tanoto-soegiri (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would think there is an equivalent of Green Card/Permanent Residency in Indonesia, which applies to non-Indonesian who holds Indonesian Identity Card. If the person is Indonesian, it will have the words "WNI" (Warga Negara Indonesia - Indonesian Citizen), but if the person is an Alien, it will have the word "WNA" (Warga Negara Asing - Citizen of foreign countries). But there is no way to find that out on Maya, unless she or the government disclosed it. Indonesian government can't force a person to give up the foreign citizenship, but they can revoke that person's Indonesian citizenship. w.tanoto-soegiri (talk) 10:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, Tanoto. Thank you for the info and the pdf document, which I reviewed (p. 12 and the Indonesia page). For now, as this discussion continues, with hopefully more more input from others, I suppose we can keep both Citizenship and Nationality up. Right now, though, I do lean toward the eventual elimination of one in Maya's case, preferably Nationality, as the term Citizenship is more universally recognized and understood. Nationality can be a socio-culturally-politically contested term here in the U.S., which is why I'm hoping perhaps an Ethnic Studies or Sociology professor (I'm a mere ethnic studies student ;) might weigh in on our discussion, and/or a more experienced wiki editor with knowledge or experience on this Nationality vs. Citizenship q, as I imagine it's come up before in disussions on Talk pages of people's Bios. The other problem we have, of course, is that I don't think Maya has spoken to this issue publicly, so I don't think we know the details of her U.S. and Indonesian legal status. I'm 99% positive she's a U.S. citizen, though, as she was coordinator of Barack's Hawaii primary campaign, and very active in the general election campaign as well. I also want to say I appreciate your international perspective. The fact that you brought up this Nationality vs. Citizenship point reminded me to take off my American hat and put on my global hat, as Wiki is not just read by Americans, which, being Americans ;), we sometimes forget. We Americans know what we usually mean when informally using the term "Nationality" (though, as I say, it is still somewhat of a contested term), but obviously non-Americans may scratch their heads at us ;) Beansandveggies (talk) 10:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

yes, I've been waiting for other comments other than mine or yours before making any further action. But I got to agree with you regarding "Nationality". In China, each of the ethnicities are regarded as "Nationality". I would think that because Indonesia does not recognise dual-citizenship, and USA recognise it, she will likely to lose Indonesian citizenship upon reaching adulthood (if she did not renounce one of them), and I would think the same as you, I am 99% sure that she is American. This is why I did not change the date system in the article to dd/mm/yyyy form. (In WP Indonesia, there used to be an agreement to change the date system for articles about Indonesia/related to Indonesia to dd/mm/yyyy.). No worries about Nationality vs Citizenship. I am sure that applies to all kind of english, not only american, so I guess nearly everybody will understand. Even we, WP Indonesia members, had argument whether to use "Soe" or "Su" for names that begin with that [3] (Soeharto, Soetoro, Soekarno vs Suharto, Sutoro, Sukarno). We could not agree on that, and I decided to get out of the argument. My point was consistency: one of them using Soe, such as Soetoro, the other using Su, such as Sukarno and Suharto. w.tanoto-soegiri (talk) 22:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Year of birth of daughters

"Their first daughter Suhaila was born in 2005 and their second daughter Savita was born in 2009." The statement contradicts with what's in the infobox which says they were born in 2003 & 2008 respectively. Now wiki (talk) 02:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems, from the article from CBC (see the end for link), that Suhaila was born about "a month earlier" when Obama paid a visit to Niagara Falls in Canada in "in August 2004", i.e. around July 2004. See [4] Now wiki (talk) 03:40, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the article from Chicago Sun-Times, it was mentioned that the elder daughter, Suhaila, was two-year-old, without specifying the year of birth. It also mentioned that Soetoro-Ng was 36, when she should be 37 by the time the article was published (2007-9-9). See [5] Now wiki (talk) 06:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Language Spoken

I refer to the 'citation needed' flag, do we really need any citation to support that she speaks English? Now wiki (talk) 08:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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