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Rufus King

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Sworn in as USA Vice President here. Only one ever sworn in on foreign soil. Worth a mention? And knowing where, exactly, would improve the article. 2601:647:6680:4450:65FA:720:5B1F:4D59 (talk) 03:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Intent of the Spaniards to kill the natives - need support

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The word "(las) matanzas" literally translates as (the) killings. In the "Name Origin" section it says that the Spanish came to that river with the intent to kill the natives. I don't have any specific reasons for doubting this and it fits the modus operandi of the Conquistadors. That being said the only reference cited does not provide support either for that being the intent and for them drowning because their armor was too heavy. There were probably some sailors who were not wearing armor and there were three women, probably without armor, and only one survived.

This travel sight describing the source of the name cites this article as support. We can't cite that because that would be a circular sourcing. However the fact that Lonely Planet uses us as its source highlights the importance of getting it right on Wikipedia.

https://www.lonelyplanet.com/cuba/matanzas/background/history/a/nar/5891c9e0-4919-4547-8db7-11a83d98ffd4/358018

Moreover, it says that on its "founding" in 1693 the port was named San Carlos y San Severino de Matanzas. That would be St. Charles and St. Severin of Matanzas, which might indicate that St. Severin (or both saints) hail from Matanzas and perhaps that place was named for some earlier massacre elsewhere.

The Spanish version in the etymology section cites a 1939 source that is citing even older references. That language quoted is very old and its paragraph & sentence construction is hard to translate due to its multiple nesting of dependent clauses. They could be read as they (the Spanish) way, but seems to instead refer to the intent of the natives to kill the Spaniards and how they were lured onto the canoes by the Spanish. One could hardly blame a group of natives wanting to kill the Spaniards, particularly it they knew what the Spaniards had done elsewhere.

[Yes, one could. Find out why this expedition occured] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:6680:4450:65FA:720:5B1F:4D59 (talk) 03:49, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have translated that block quotation of the 1939 source

... quiero decir por qué causa llamaban aquel puerto Matanzas.... Aquel nombre se le puso por esto que diré: Que antes que aquella isla de Cuba se conquistase, dio al través un navío en aquella costa, cerca del puerto y del río que he dicho que se dice Matanzas, y venían en el navío sobre treinta personas españoles y dos mujeres, y para pasarlos de la otra parte del río, porque es muy grande y caudaloso, vinieron muchos indios de la Habana y de otros pueblos con intención de matarlos y de que no se atrevieron a darles guerra en tierra, con buenas palabras y halagos les dijeron que los querían pasar en canoas y llevarlos a sus pueblos para darles de comer. Ya que iban con ellos a medio del río en las canoas, las trastornaron y mataron que no quedaron más de tres hombres y una mujer que era hermosa, ....

That translates literally into the following:

... I want to say why they called that port the Killings .... That name was given for this I tell: Before that island of Cuba was conquered, there sailed a ship on that coast, near the port and of the river that I have said that is called Matanzas, and on that ship there traveled about thirty Spanish and two women, and to pass them from the other part of the river, because it [The river] is big and mighty, came many indians from Havana and other villages with the intention of killing them and who had not dared to give battle them land, with good words and compliments they told them that they wanted to take them across in canoes and take them to their villages to feed them. Since they were with them in the canoes when they were about mid-river, they upset and killed them so that there were left were no more than three men and a woman who was beautiful, ...

As I said above, it's quite possible they intended to kill the natives, but it really doesn't make sense that they got on the canoes with natives they expected might kill them, because it seems likely that the natives knew what the Spanish were about. The passage very specifically says that some of the natives came from the port city of La Habana - a place where the Spanish had been for a while.

The verb "pasar" is "to pass" and has different interpretations, just as in English. It can mean, among other things, to pass geographically (to pass across [travel], to pass [someone] (i.e., to go past), to pass chronologically (to pass time), or to pass in status (to pass a test or to surpass). So its meaning has to be determined from the context. Here it clearly refers to a geographic movement, "to take." "Para pasarlos" can mean "in order to take themselves" (to pass someone) or "in order for [him/her/them] to take them." In Spanish, it's common to have a sentence without a stated subject for the action (verb). Although the subject isn't named, its understood (inferred from the context). English generally only does this in imperative sentences: "Go to your room!"

The first interpretation doesn't make much sense so the second interpretation is more likely. Unfortunately the phrase has two unclear pronoun references because of the unstated subject. These are the key clauses:

The first, "y para pasarlos de la otra parte del río, porque es muy grande y caudaloso" which can be translated as:
(A) And in order [for someone] to take themselves to the other part of the river, because it is big and mighty

or

(B) And in order [for someone] to take them to the other part of the river, because it is big and mighty
Further, in passive voice it would be: "In order to be taken to."

"In order to" can also be simply stated as "to."

The second clause "vinieron muchos indios de la Habana y de otros pueblos con intención de matarlos y de que no se atrevieron a darles guerra en tierra,"
there came many Indians [who were] from Havana and other villages with the intention of killing them and who had not dared to give them battle on land

So we have two possible interpretations: I: And [for someone/them] to take themselves to the other part of the river, because it is big and mighty, there came many indians from Havana and other villages with the intention of killing them and who had not dared to give them battle on land OR II: And to be taken to the other part of the river, because it is big and mighty, there came many Indians from Havana and other villages with the intention of killing them and who had not dared to give them battle on land

That second interpretation is much more likely in context, so we get the most likely interpretation: "to be taken to the other side, ... [there] came many indians who were from Havana ... with the intention to kill them and who had not dared to fight them on land."

--2600:1702:4600:B710:C1C7:F474:9F2A:7AB (talk) 17:38, 26 December 2019 (UTC)ileanadu[reply]

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