Talk:Masmuda

April 2022

A book on "Amazigh grammar" (only useful for those who want to learn Amazigh) does not justify the inclusion of Tifinagh (a script that the Masmuda are not closely associated with). M.Bitton (talk) 13:12, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Freelancer212: i think those two IPs that have edited on this page recently belong to you.

Besides what @M.Bitton mentioned above, the content that you added about Masmuda being outside Morocco doesn't make anysense.

And Also next time when adding a source you should mention the page in order to facilitate verification. Thanks. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 14:26, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear user. First of all I want to thank you for your tip. Although I am very sorry that you just reverted my edits (which I put a lot of time and research into) as if it were nothing.

As for the tribes, the tribes listed on the front page have no source, are all misspelled, are messy, and are not in alphabetical order. In addition, there is a tab in which the tribes are described. This is why I took them out of there.

Secondly, I have completed the list of tribes, for this I have used an accurate map, which I have also added as a source. In addition, the Hintata and Haha tribes were in the list, but I added the sub-tribes below. You can also find these subtribes on the pages of these tribes. From now on, please check the source first before removing an edit, because it cost me a lot of effort.

Third, I added another infobox, which is also used on the page of the Zenata and brings structure to the page.

You can take a look at this and give any feedback. I'm here to improve the page and at the moment I see a lot of flaws on the page. Freelancer212 (talk) 14:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

@Freelancer212 :Before we continue with this discussion, could you please clarify whether you were the one who made this edit? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 16:33, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear.

Yes that was me, because i had not made an account yet. Freelancer212 (talk) 16:39, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Ok. First of all, you said in your comment that "Masmuda are not just from Morocco", you didn't give any source supporting your claim.

Secondly, please when you give sources make sure that they are RS (reliable sources), a post on Reddit is not an RS!!

Thirdly, i would agree with some of your edits (sub-tribes and mispelled words ..), but let's discuss them first. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 17:01, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

The source is not about Reddit, it is about the map. The map clearly indicates the Masmuda tribes. It also indicates the subtribes of the Haha and Hintana, something you can also find on their pages (the subtribes are described there and also in folders). The map is reliable, you can also Google the tribes one by one to see where they belong. The page before my edit and after is a world of difference, and you unceremoniously delete it. Let's rewind the page and if there are still things missing, like multiple sources for example, I'll find and add them. Freelancer212 (talk) 17:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

@Freelancer212 You didn't anwer my first point! Anyway, please provide RS and you're welcome to do your edit. Also i suggest you read WP:RS, however i'm going to recover some of your minor edits right now. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 17:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

That first point of you, i agree with that. We let it stand how it is now.

About the sources, for which points you like to see a source? What i said about the map and the pages of the Hintata and Haha tribes, for me it is already clair it is valid. So for which things you would like to see a source?

btw the infobox stand apart from this, i think we both agree on that. Freelancer212 (talk) 17:37, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

What is the problem right now? Tell me what you think is not possible. Otherwise this will be an endless rollback race, which is not what we want. If you don't have counter arguments, I'm going to revert the edit. I am waiting for your answer. Freelancer212 (talk) 16:55, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I can barely keep track of all that's going on here, but both of you should stop edit-warring now. That means you should not reinstate your edits again, Freelancer212, until there is a consensus on the talk page, regardless of whether you think the other editor is wrong or not. There are further dispute resolution measures if really necessary.

That said, I'm just looking at this set of edits by Freelancer212, and I see that a large amount of content was added to the "Sub-tribes" section which is attributed to a bare url of a Reddit page. Please note that this is not a reliable source, and cannot be used here regardless of whether you think it's accurate. Neither is "Google" nor any other Wikipedia pages. Please review the Wikipedia policy at Wikipedia:Reliable sources on what type of sources should be cited. Please also keep in mind that the introduction to that section indicates that the accompanying list is based on a specific primary source. Even if you are citing other reliable sources, please make sure you differentiate which content is supported by which source, which means it should not be in the exact same list.

There is other content in this article that is not well-sourced, but adding poorly-sourced or unsourced content only makes things worse, so please refrain from doing so. If applicable, make sure you also avoid adding your own personal research (see Wikipedia:No original research). R Prazeres (talk) 18:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Sub-tribes

@Freelancer212, about this edit of yours, there seems to be some kind of confusion between Jbala and Ghomara, as it is mentioned in Jbala article that their ancient name is Ghomara. also as far as i know Jbala are not traditionally known as Berbers. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 20:19, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

The Jebala and Ghomaras are two different tribes. Jebala are Masmuda Berbers, who speak Arabic nowadays, just like the Regraga clan. Freelancer212 (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@Freelancer212, The name of "Jbala" itself is not Berber but most likely it's in local Arabic dialect (It means the inhabitants of the mountains), moreover both of them almost inhabit the same region (nothwestern Morocco or the western Rif mountains). And also what do you say about Ghomara being the original name of Jbala (as it's mentioned in the Jbala article)? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 20:45, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

This is also what appears the Encyclopédie Berbère appears to say in its article about the term "Jebala" ([1]). This just shows what happens when WP:OR is used on top of reliable sources, and seems like another good reason to revert back again to the previous version of this section. R Prazeres (talk) 19:25, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I haven't seen any further explanation or justification of the new content despite the issues raised above, and other editors are already starting to make unexplained changes ([2]) to a list with already significant WP:OR and verifiability problems, so I'm going to remove this once again, keeping just the original information. If these issues are can be fixed, please explain how you'll fix them on this talk page. Otherwise, if new content can't be fully and transparently sourced from beginning to end, then it doesn't belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether editors think they're right or not. That's what verifiability means. Similar problematic content has been reverted elsewhere, so there's no more reason to keep it here. R Prazeres (talk) 20:47, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Sources for future use

For what it's worth, there's a couple of convenient reference works with an article/entry on the Masmuda. The Encyclopédie Berbère (in French), has one such entry here. The Encyclopaedia of Islam (in English), second edition (or "new edition" at the time), has an even longer entry on the topic in volume 6 (1991), on pages 741 to 744. That can be accessed for free here (you may need to register, but archive.org does come in handy for other references too). Given that there's not a lot of other convenient overview references on the Masmuda specifically, these may be good resources for future use here. R Prazeres (talk) 21:13, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Maghous and not beni magus

Source : Ibn Khaldun. There is no better source than him in terms of data connected to berbers tribes. I found the book in french : histoire des berberes et des dynasties musulmanes, page 160 it says : the subtribe of Assaden (Masmouda) is composed by Mesfaoua and Maghous… Oussamamag (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. We should aim for modern English transliterations, rather than old French transliterations, so I've modified them to reflect the English source I mentioned above, while adding more information from that source (in this edit). So Maghus rather than Beni Magus. Maghous, though very similar, would be the typical French transliteration. R Prazeres (talk) 01:16, 29 March 2023 (UTC)