Talk:Masanobu Tsuji

Accuracy and tone

Cannibalizing soldiers? Eaten by a tiger at the Plain of Jars? Assassinations? I'd like some pointers to proof of this stuff. Article seems very sensationalistic in this regard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.36.18.129 (talk • contribs) 14:21, 5 December 2005

• http://www.archives.gov/iwg/meetings/minutes/minutes-090601.html Interagency Working Group (IWG)Summary Meeting Minutes, September 6, 2000

"She also reviewed the case of Col. Tsuji Masanobu, who was wanted by both British and Americans for various war crimes, including the brutalities against Americans during the Bataan Death March. He eluded capture, changed identities and by the '50s was elected to Japan's House of Representatives."

• http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/iwgreport02.html - Implementation of the Japanese Imperial Government Disclosure Act and the Japanese War Crimes Provisions of the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act-An Interim Report to Congress: Records of the Army Staff: The Investigative Records Repository (IRR)

"The 1946-1963 file of Colonel Tsuji Masanobu, who eluded capture and trial for alleged crimes against the Chinese at Singapore, and for mistreatment of Allied POWs. After returning to Japan, allegedly in disguise in 1948, but not identified until 1950, Tsuji published best selling accounts of his wartime exploits and assumed leadership of the East Asia League"

• • Records of the Central Intelligence Agency

"A series of cards, labeled Tientsin (China) and listing suspect Japanese war criminals includes the name of Lt. Colonel Tsuji for torture, murder, and cannibalism (location and victims are not given)."

• Records of the Navy Judge Advocate General

"Eyewitness account by second generation Japanese born in Singapore, of the torture and murder of a captured American airman by a Colonel Tsuji and subsequent cannibalism of his preserved body parts. Same informant, in course of interview by Southeast Asia Translation and Interrogation Center under the supervision of the OWI, New Delhi, claimed "rape and pillage" were common among front-line soldiers fighting in China and attested to the establishment by the Japanese army of occupation in Malaysia of "licensed public comfort houses," a practice which did not prevent abuse and rape of Malaysian women."

--—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.155.1.245 (talk • contribs) 04:37, 6 June 2006

Further War crimes

Tsuji may have also ordered the executions of Philippine government and justice officials during the initial stages of the Japanese occupation, but, I don't have any references at the moment to back that up. Cla68 03:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Tsuji's activities are mentioned in Fuller, Shokan: Hirohito's Samurai, page 111. The relevant paragraph reads: "A 14th Army staff officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Tsuji Masanobu, convinced some fellow officers that a massacre of prisoners was necessary because of racist principles. They in turn persuaded some field commanders that it was an official order although it was without the knowledge, and against the principles, of 14th Army Commander, M.HONMA."

I quote this brief source because it is right in front of me. I do not think it would be hard to find further sources documenting his role in atrocities in Malaya, Guadalcanal, and China, but I don't have those right in front of me. The bottom line is that Tsuji was a fanatical pan-Asian racist who is rightly regarded as the worst unindicted war criminal of the Pacific War. It is not acceptable that there is no hint of this in the current version of this article. 71.33.63.199 04:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Tsuji is also known to have been involved in the Bataan Death March. He manipulated a divisional officer into sending out orders to the effect that all surrendering forces should be executed. Thankfully, a good number of the officers who recieved the directive refused as that order was counter to Homma's orders, but it's unknown how many did as they were told. Homma was executed after the war for what happened as he was the general in charge, but the record shows he was hopelessly out of touch about what had really been going on. --Lendorien 09:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Problem with article name

This article lists Tsuji's name in the Japanese manner- family name first, which is against English Wikipedia's naming convention. I'm going to move the article in accordance with the policy. Cla68 03:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Masanobu Tsuji

His book was published in English in the UK by Spellmount Ltd 1997. ISBN 1-873376-75-8. Earlier copyright 1993,1997 by Sarpendon Publishers, New York.

Title: The Mastermind behind Japan's Greatest Victory, Britain's Worst Defeat The Capture of Singapore 1942 Author: Colonel Masuanobu Tsuji Edited by: H. V. Howe, Military Secretary to the Australian Minister for the Army 1940-46 Translated by: Margaret E. Lake

First published in Japan as: Shonan: The Hinge of Fate (1952) First published in Austalia as: Singapore: The Japanese Version (1960) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.1.104.223 (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Disappearance - no source?

Any objections to the removal of the unsourced statement "In 1961 he disappeared in the Plain of Jars, Laos"? 208.76.82.4 (talk) 05:57, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Now removed [1] - 58.8.17.15 (talk) 03:36, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

In "The Rising Sun" by John Toland, he speculates that Tsuji may have been captured by the Communist Chinese and may still have been alive (the book was written in 1970) but the speculation is in the chapter notes at the end of the book and Toland doesn't say why he or his sources think that he was captured. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yanqui9 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Claim that Tsuji was considered as a successor to Yamamoto

A different editor from myself attempted to remove this claim, and the removal was reverted. Frankly, I support its removal, possibly to be put in the Japan's Imperial Conspiracy article instead. David Bergamini is not generally regarded as a reliable source, and the claim (assuming it's a faithful quote of Bergamini) really is ludicrous on its face. --Yaush (talk) 18:09, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I am the user who kept reverting the content deletions. Although I tend to agree with your point that it is strange that Tsuji would have been considered as a successor to Yamamoto, the text now does mention that this is "according to David Bergamini". If you, or anyone else, can come up with a reliable reference stating the opposite of what Bergamini says, that information could be included in the text without deleting the Bergamini content, but instead, by modifying it. For instance by adding something like "However, other authors disagree with Bergamini on this issue because...". But just plainly removing content because you don't agree with the referenced author is not appropriate per WP:NPOV. - Takeaway (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

WP:NPOV does not require retaining "fringe theories" subscribed to by a tiny minority of sources. I don't know anyone but Bergamini who suggests Tsuji, an Army colonel, was recommended to take over the Navy vice admiral billet of commander of Combined Fleet. The idea is simply ridiculous, to the point where I doubt any of the credible historians of this period of Japanese history would even bother to refute it. Indeed, the only other historian of this period who gives any credibility to Bergamini at all is Herbert Bix, and even Bix acknowledges Bergamini's sins as a historian.--Yaush (talk) 20:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Then please write in the article that Bergamini's theory is a fringe theory by referring to other historians of name who do not mention this fact about Tsuji at all. - Takeaway (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

My point is that mentioning Bergamini's fringe theory at all is not required by WP:NPOV and may in fact violate WP:UNDUE, which states: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority; to do so would give "undue weight" to the Flat Earth belief."

So the question is whether Bergamini's claim is to be regarded as the view of a tiny minority, on par with the view of Flat Earthers. I would say yes.--Yaush (talk) 20:54, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Please prove it. Just saying that something is a fringe theory comes close to WP:OR. - Takeaway (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Bix: "[Bergamini's] book took some courage, but embedded in it was a full-blown conspiracy theory that no sane person could accept." From an interview: http://cgi.cnn.com/ASIANOW/asiaweek/foc/

Sheldon: "The book is a polemic which, to our knowledge, contradicts all previous scholarly work, whether in English or in Japanese. It also contradicts the facts upon which this previous scholarship rested. Specialists on Japan have unanimously demolished Bergamini's thesis and his pretensions to careful scholarship." From a peer-reviewed journal article: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=2693904

David M. Kennedy: "One reviewer observed that Bergamini was "believable only by violating every canon of acceptable documentation." The historian Barbara Tuchman said that Bergamini's thesis "appears to be almost entirely a product of the author's inference and of his predilection for the sinister explanation."" Source: http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/98apr/horror.htm

Theodore Cook: "You name it, He did it. The bible of the Hirohito conspiracy theorists. It asks many of the right questions. The problem is where he says he finds the answers. Best to avoid using, but read it to see where others get their “inside knowledge.”" Source: www.fas.harvard.edu/~asiactr/sino-japanese/ChinaWarBib.pdf

Joshua A. Fogel "...David Bergamini’s Japan’s Imperial Conspiracy, a work long ago dismissed by serious historians of Japan as based on little substantial evidence..." Source: http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/china_review_international/v015/15.1.fogel.html

There are a number of links to criticisms of Japan's Imperial Conspiracy in Wikipedia's own article on the book. Unfortunately, they are mostly behind a subscription-only wall. --Yaush (talk) 03:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I am the one that removed that content. The only time in history when an army colonel was given a command of a fleet was in the Netherlands in 17th century in the middle of a politically very delicate period. http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Jacob_van_Wassenaer_Obdam. Seriously, people, you have so many interesting and important facts about Tsuji in Dan Ford's "Colonel Tsuji of Malaya" (already a reference at the end of the article), however a good portion of a short and not too informative article is spent on a stupid theory based either on hearsay or imagination, by someone who obviously had no idea what he was writing about. By including this theory you degrade the article. I suggest you better copy the whole "Colonel Tsuji of Malaya" then leave it as is. Tsuji was a shadowy fgure that leaves huge spaces for healthy examination of really IMPORTANT unanswered questions about his life: (Why was he so feared and influental? How did he earn the access and trust to the higher-ups? Why was he never punished for insubordination or defeats? What conspiracies he took part in? Did he indeed eat a liver of a downed pilot? Did he really order executions of prisoners? Why was he never tried for war crimes? How was he elected to Diet? Was he partly homosexual? How and why he disappeared?) yet you waste space of this supposedly encyclopedic article on a sole theory about him that is outright wrong by common sense and weight of evidence presented by Yaush.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.110.246.152 (talk) 08:36, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Those are all the right questions. There's a very interesting monograph waiting to be written on Tsuji by a skilled historian who knows his way around Japanese sources. Unfortunately, Bergamini wasn't that historian. --Yaush (talk) 21:06, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

"After the defeat at Kalkin Gol, ..."

What is it about this statement that needs a separate citation? Is it the claim that the battle was a Japanese defeat? --Yaush (talk) 15:38, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Max Hastings quote

I think the Max Hastings quote is pretty WP:UNDUE, as it is the only quote I can find that claims he burnt down a geisha house in order to challenge subordinates.

Frankly, this man has as much legend as Rasputin surrounding him, and unless something solid can come up to corroborate the quote, I think this should be removed. Solntsa90 (talk) 15:03, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

The most reliable source I have found so far on his life, is the following: www.archives.gov/iwg/japanese-war-crimes/introductory-essays. Page 211 to 215 are specifically about him, and he is also mentioned in other sections of this report written by ~the Nazi War Crimes and Japanese Imperial Government Records Interagency Working Group. - Takeaway (talk) 15:40, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Reading the section on Masanobu, nowhere does it corroborate Hastings' claims that a geisha house was burnt down, and if anything, treats him rather softly by constantly referring to him as an "alleged war criminal". I think the quote should still be removed as it is a pretty legendary, bolsterous claim that has no real basis in established, empirical fact, and let's face it--as I said, the guy has as much legend surrounding him in Asia as Rasputin does in Europe.

I still think the quote should go for WP:UNDUE though.

(BTW, thank you very much for the interesting reading material--I plan on reading it all when I get the chance, as the Imperial Era of Japanese history fascinates me to this very day)

Solntsa90 (talk) 20:20, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Old discussion, I realize, but: The comparison of Tsuji to Rasputin strikes me as spot-on in a surprising number of respects. Kent G. Budge (talk) 19:55, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

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Gekokujo

From Meirion and Susie Harries, Soldiers of the Sun: The Rise and Fall of the Imperial Japanese Army" (ISBN 0-679-75303-6), p.341 et seq.:

"Another phenomenon subverting conventional army methods of making decisions was the notorous gekokujo, the peculiar brand of insubordination that had come to permeate the middle ranks of the Imperial Army in the 1930s. To impatient, immoderate, ambitious young officers, it often seemed that their seniors in the High Command were intellectually lazy, outmoded in their military thinking, and, more important, seriously compromised politically by their close relations with the despised civilian government. What they needed was firm, decisive direction from below.

"Gekokujo had been viewed by some as a positive trait6, a habit of helping one's superior to interpret and implement his orders from above by taking he initiative oneself. Staff officers and subordinate commanders routinely offered their own views, openly expressing doubts about their seniors' thinking. Generally speaking,staff officers were responsible for drafting orders; because of inertia, overwork, and even a curious desire to curry favor, it became increasingly common for commanders to approve these orders against their own instincts and experience.

"This dependence on their juniors was damaging, because the young officers, for all their zeal, lacked experience and a broad grounding in politics, economics, or diplomacy. The quality of leadership inevitably suffered. The habit of acquiescence was dangerous, because it could be interpreted too widely; in the majority of the attempted coups of the militarist era, right up until the last desperate fling of August 14, 1945, the middle -ranking extremist leaders acted under the impression that they had the support of some of the highest officials in the army -- Ugaki, Araki, Yamashita, Korechika Anami.

"The career of Colonel Masanobu Tsuji offers an outstanding example of gekokujo and the harm it could do. Tsuji was an exceptionally intelligent staff officer with a flair ofr operational planning -- talent vitiated by megalomaniac ambition, violent prejudices, and ruthless disregard for human life....

"...But even allowing for exaggeration, for an officer of his rank he played a remarkably significant part in accelerating Japan's progress toward war, and his seniors' failure to nip his particular brand of gekokujo in the bud was especially disastrous."

Yes, gekokuko is just a word -- a Japanese word, not an English word, and as is very often the case, the word in one language does not translate into another without losing a lot of nuance. From this quote -- the first I could come across quickly in my library -- it seems the word has considerable nuance beyond "rebellion" and so Western scholars have used it untranslated to convey a concept that does not have a real English equivalent. --Kent G. Budge (talk) 03:58, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I am Japanese. This is wrong. It is just nonsense. This sounds like one western academic came up with a lie or misunderstanding, and then others simply believed it. R koiwai (talk) 14:55, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

If it's a a misconception, it's one that's extremely widespread among Western historians of the Pacific War. If you can find a reliable source documenting this misconception, that would be a very interesting addition to this article. --Kent G. Budge (talk) 15:24, 10 May 2020 (UTC)