Talk:Mary Rose

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Mary Rose is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 19, 2010.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
February 1, 2010	Peer review	Reviewed
March 8, 2010	Featured article candidate	Promoted
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on January 4, 2010. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the Mary Rose was a Tudor period warship that sank during the Battle of the Solent in 1545 and was salvaged (pictured) by maritime archaeologists 437 years later?
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on July 19, 2011, July 19, 2013, July 19, 2015, July 19, 2019, July 19, 2020, July 19, 2022, and July 19, 2024.
Current status: Featured article

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Press for Wikipedia

Culture24 Staff (2010-01-04). "Unseen Mary Rose pictures revealed in groundbreaking Wikipedia deal". Retrieved 2010-01-04.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)

"The Downs, west of Kent"

The second sentence of the second section of the heading Sails and rigging says:

In March 1513 a contest was arranged off The Downs, west of Kent, in which she raced against nine other ships.

According to the Wikipedia article The Downs is placed east of Kent. Is this a lapsus? LittleGun (talk) 12:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sailing performance placement in article

The placement of the discussion of Mary Rose's sailing performance in the section headed Sails and rigging is misleading. Good performance of a sailing vessel relies on both the hull shape and the efficiency of the rig – this is something that is not always understood. Because this is clear to those who work in this field, it is not easy to find a reference that clearly states this point. However it is tangential to such discussions. For instance "...confirming that the shape of the hull would have provided a good performance under sail"^[1] "‘Windward Sailing Capabilities of Ancient Vessels’ (Palmer, 2009b) provided the theoretical physical basis for calculating the windward capabilities of ancient ships as a function of the efficiency of the hull and the rig."^[2] Palmer is perhaps the clearest (though he is only talking about sailing to windward): "The windward performance ... depends upon the hydrodynamic efficiency of the hull and the aerodynamic efficiency of the sails. ... it is only when they come together on a complete vessel ... that their combined potential is realised.^[3]

Extensive discussions about hull shape and performance in the context of later sailing vessels can be found in David R MacGregor's books, particularly in Fast Sailing Ships^[4] and The Tea Clippers.^[5] (Of course, these sources generally discuss speed – however things like sea-kindliness are important factors for a ship with broadside guns.)

I will therefore move the coverage of sailing performance into a separate section to avoid any confusion from the unintended implication that this is all dictated by the actual sails. This is also a good place to introduce the surprising (to the archaeologists) length/beam ratio. I hope to make these changes later today. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 08:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Bonino, Marco (September 2018). "A Further Proposal for the Hull Lines of the Madrague de Giens Ship ( c .70 BC): HULL LINES AND CONSTRUCTION OF THE MADRAGUE DE GIENS". International Journal of Nautical Archaeology. 47 (2): 443–459. doi:10.1111/1095-9270.12300.
^ Gal, D.; Saaroni, H.; Cvikel, D. (2 January 2023). "Windward Sailing in Antiquity: The Elephant in the Room". International Journal of Nautical Archaeology. 52 (1): 179–194. doi:10.1080/10572414.2023.2186688. ISSN 1057-2414.
^ Palmer, Colin (September 2009). "Windward Sailing Capabilities of Ancient Vessels". International Journal of Nautical Archaeology. 38 (2): 314–330. doi:10.1111/j.1095-9270.2008.00208.x.
^ MacGregor, David R (1988). Fast Sailing Ships, their design and construction, 1775-1875 (Second ed.). London: Conway Maritime Press. ISBN 0 87021895 6.
^ MacGregor, David R. (1983). The Tea Clippers, Their History and Development 1833-1875. Conway Maritime Press Limited. ISBN 0-85177-256-0.

Separate informational notes section

Would this article benefit from a separate informational notes section? At present, notes that really form part of the article content are all mixed up with the references. An example of this is
It was not until the 1590s that the word "broadside" in English was commonly used to refer to gunfire from the side of a ship rather than the ship's side itself; Rodger 1996, pp. 312, 316
and perhaps
Burningham 2001 gives a helpful account of sailing with this version of square rig, though this refers to a replica of a ship built around 85 years later than Mary Rose.
I suggest the simplest way of doing this would be with the widely used {{efn}} template. We should not be confused by the presence of cited references in these informational notes – any article content should be supported by references, and the efn template allows this to be done without any trouble.

I note that there have been previous attempts to do this, such as [2] by User:LlywelynII. An article that recently was improved by such a change is Galley, through the efforts of User:User-duck. I note that the overwhelming majority of Good Articles that have informational notes put them in a separate section. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 10:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Referencing errors

The short reference Weightman (1957) appears to refer to Heraldry In The Royal Navy, Crests And Badges Of H.M. Ships 1 Jan. 1957 by Alfred E. Weightman (Author). I don't have a copy to verify that it supports the article content.

Correct and ref found in old version of article

Rodger (1996) appears to be Rodger, Nicholas A. M. (1996). The wooden world: an anatomy of the Georgian navy (Norton paperback ed.). New York, NY: Norton. ISBN 9780393314694.

No it was a Mariner's Mirror paper

Wille (2005) appears to be an MA candidate paper, and as such would not be an RS. However, I am uncertain about this conclusion.

No, this is a bookThoughtIdRetired _TIR 14:26, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

All fixed now as per additions above (by going back to an old version of the article). ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 22:58, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Bonino, Marco (September 2018). "A Further Proposal for the Hull Lines of the Madrague de Giens Ship ( c .70 BC): HULL LINES AND CONSTRUCTION OF THE MADRAGUE DE GIENS". International Journal of Nautical Archaeology. 47 (2): 443–459. doi:10.1111/1095-9270.12300.

[2] Gal, D.; Saaroni, H.; Cvikel, D. (2 January 2023). "Windward Sailing in Antiquity: The Elephant in the Room". International Journal of Nautical Archaeology. 52 (1): 179–194. doi:10.1080/10572414.2023.2186688. ISSN 1057-2414.

[3] Palmer, Colin (September 2009). "Windward Sailing Capabilities of Ancient Vessels". International Journal of Nautical Archaeology. 38 (2): 314–330. doi:10.1111/j.1095-9270.2008.00208.x.

[MacGregor_1988-4] MacGregor, David R (1988). Fast Sailing Ships, their design and construction, 1775-1875 (Second ed.). London: Conway Maritime Press. ISBN 0 87021895 6.

[MacGregor_1983-5] MacGregor, David R. (1983). The Tea Clippers, Their History and Development 1833-1875. Conway Maritime Press Limited. ISBN 0-85177-256-0.

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