Talk:Martin Sekulić

Delete this article

This man was just a secondary school teacher. Not notable.--Vujkovica brdo (talk) 12:42, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

There is obviously a lot of disagreement about this, so AFD would seem more appropriate than a speedy deletion Atlantic306 (talk) 06:32, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because I will provide more solid sources within the next hours, including a book of 1976 and some of his works. --Oriol20 (talk) 16:58, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Please, be aware that Tesla nowhere ever mentioned Sekulic. You provided a false reference. For details see current https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Nikola_Tesla --Vujkovica brdo (talk) 14:23, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Of course Tesla mentioned him! You just have to read the quote in the next paragraph where Tesla says that "I had become intensely interested in electricity under the stimulating influence of my Professor of Physics" and his physics teacher was Martin Sekulić, so he influenced on Tesla. I will provide the citation needed to prove that Sekulić was his physics teacher.

Please, take a look to: http://postimg.org/gallery/1dgw0ob8w --Oriol20 (talk) 16:58, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Please, avoid further false claim in order to make the discussion meaningful. I wrote on the Tesla biography talk page: From here

Subject	4. year 1869/70	5. year 1870/71	6. year 1871/72	7. year 1872/73	Graduation
Physics		Löffler, Kregez, or Sekulic	Löffler, Kregez, or Sekulic	Löffler, or Sekulic	Sekulic

is visible that three persons were teaching physics during Tesla's school years at the Gymnasium.

Moreover, the book you offered for reading says: "Tesla ne spominje o kojem je profesoru rijec, ali se sa sigurnoscu pretpostavlja da je to bio prof Martin Sekulic ...". Translation: "Tesla do not mention the professor's name, but with certainty it can be supposed it was prof. Martin Sekulic." So, you are again falsely quoting the sources!--Vujkovica brdo (talk) 05:53, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

One of the photocopied documents you offered shows that Martin Sekulic was just the "custos" (i.e. the head) of the laboratory for Physics, not a professor (für Physik). The document says:

a) Für die obligaten Lehrgegenstände
2. Professor Augustin Löffler: für Mathematik und Physik
3. Professor Martin Sekulic Custos des physikalischen Kabinets
4. Professor Emanuel Kregez, für Chemie und Physik
Spare us falsely referencing sources.--Vujkovica brdo (talk) 06:19, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

In Tesla's marks from 1872/73 in Rakovac Gimnazija provided by Prof. Gršić it is noted that Löffler was Tesla's maths teacher, it would be strange that he also was his physics teacher. Joining that with the fact that was Sekulić who made demonstrations and not Löffler, the teacher that Tesla refers to must be Sekulić. I understand that this might not be the type of source you want. The next week I will be calling the Gimnazija and the Karlovac Archive asking for a copy of a documents from a list they have already sent me, and so I will try to get what you want to confirm it was Sekulić. --Oriol20 (talk) 13:41, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

From here is visible that Sekulic was a chemistry teacher and that Sekulic WAS INFLUENCED by Tesla.--Vujkovica brdo (talk) 05:48, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Tesla

I have rolled back the Tesla claim since there does not seem to be any support other than the WP:SYNTHESIS of "Sekulić was a physics teacher at the school, Tesla attended the school, therefor Sekulić taught Tesla" (A and B, therefore C). There seems to have been more than one physics teacher during that time-frame and not all authors (including Tesla in his own autobiography) make a claim it was Sekulić (see Talk:Nikola Tesla#Dubious claim). Per WP:YESPOV this can not be put forward as a "direct statement", all we can do is note some authors make this claim. If the non-English sources being cited show where Tesla claims he was taught by Sekulić (and Sekulić was the one who inspired him re:electricity) please provide the source and the translation per WP:RSUE. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:59, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Please, take a look to: http://postimg.org/gallery/1dgw0ob8w --Oriol20 (talk) 21:33, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Also see: http://www.gimnazija-karlovac.hr/ucenici/poznati-bivsi-ucenici/49-nikola-tesla.html There was two physics teachers in that time, one was Martin Sekulić (head of the department) and the other was Augustin Löffler, but only one of the two made such demonstrations and experiments. Tesla referes to the physics teacher saying that he was delighted by the experiments, therefore, Sekulić was his physics teacher. --Oriol20 (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Also see: https://s3.postimg.org/iga7l3gtf/zapisnik_o_maturalnom_ispitu_nikola_tesla_1872_1.jpg That prove Sekulić was at least a teacher of Tesla in 1872/73 (See the bottom part of the page). --Oriol20 (talk) 21:48, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but we can't infer A+B=C. If the images you are linking contain a primary source supporting Tesla as a student of Sekulić, please provide the translation and maybe a link to the further source. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:54, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Here the translation of the book of 1876:

"Tesla does not mention on which the professor word, but it is certainly assumed it was with prof. Martin Sekulic (1833-1905), who was at that time on the Rakovica realka taught physics and mathematics. He is a corresponding member of the Yugoslav Academy of Sciences and Arts in Zagreb, curator physics laboratory and library in the Rakovica realka, lecturer weather stations and a member of the Croatian Teaching and Literary Society in Zagreb. Sekulic are particularly interested in electricity, Flash, magnetism and electrolysis.

It is known to many as eight Sekulićevih scientific debate and the day of his journalistic work on secondary schools. During Tesla's education in Rakovac Sekulic in Radu >> << the Yugoslav Academy of Arts and Sciences announced discussions >> Fluorescence and calcescencija << (1872) and Research >> << sun long (1873).

In the first debate Sekulic predicted the existence of electromagnetic oscillations of different frequencies. In another endlessly about his machine which is Tesla many years later remembered and which is attained picture polar dawn in all its stages. Sekulic invented and other machines, for example. modified spectroscope.

Sekulic experiments Tesla enchanted, as he himself says. There is, in fact, was a real scientific discoveries. Besides Tesla Sekulic assisted at trial in connection with its investigation. So it is not surprising that the Tesla only seven graduates decided to study techniques, July 24, 1873, although all of them in the graduation records recorded recommendation: technique.

With his students Sekulic did not act as an average high school teacher, but they were informed about the latest developments in physics and engineering. In fact, in Vienna on 1 May 1873, the world exhibition showing the latest achievements of science: galvanic cells, storage batteries, telegraph, Grams dynamo and the Siemens dynamo self-excitation. That's what she wrote and printed a pest. In addition trebanaglasiti and this ... >> little Imad Bureau, which would be the most beautiful and valuable cabinet, and more beautiful and more valuable teacher and student library << than Rakovačko realka. In the physical cabinet was the school year 1880/81. 277 apparatus and devices, standing for provincial Rakovac really was a lot and it was Sekulic, facilitating serious research.

Let us also mention that the professor. Sejulić the Congress of Slavic educator in Vienna was elected to the Board << >> Ethnic by Croats. So, he had to really be an outstanding teacher. Thanks to his leadership of Tesla - regardless of the average score - obtained probably due to diseases that have followed him throughout his education in Gospic and Rakovcu - came to study art in Graz extraordinarily been drafted. Moreover, in contact with the professor. Sekulic cemented his desire and a wonderful sense of inventions which in itself is wearing."

And also... https://s11.postimg.io/4vkgt0elf/sekuli_5.png Here it says Sekulić was in charge of the "kabinet" of physics, it means that he was responsible for all the models and devices. It's not what some authors say, it's the truth. Moreover I am in contact with the Archives of Karlovac and with the Gimnazija so this information can be easily verified. --Oriol20 (talk) 21:58, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

The primary source can be found here: http://www.gimnazija-karlovac.hr/digitalizirana-skolska-izvjesca/carska-i-kraljevska-velika-realka-u-rakovcu.html on the 1872/74 document. --Oriol20 (talk) 22:02, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Again it says "Tesla does not mention on which the professor word, but it is certainly assumed it was with prof. Martin Sekulic". This does not seem to change the wording in the article much, maybe "Some sources note the inventor Nikola Tesla could have been a student of Martin Sekulić" - we can not go beyond what the sources say and make a definitive statement. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 02:37, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I do not think that "sources" offering guessings, not the facts, are sources. They shall be discarded unconditionally. Trying to establish someones notability on plain guessings is not the way to keep this article alive.--Vujkovica brdo (talk) 06:01, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

With permission, I am changing the heading to split this talk off into its own section, I should have started it that way off the bat, my bad. This is a discussion on one point/claim, not a discussion of deletion. Please put deletion discussions above at "Contested deletion". Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 13:15, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

The "book of 1876" / "Tesla does not mention on which the professor word, but it is certainly assumed it was with prof. Martin Sekulic" seems to spell out the situation very well. What source is that? (I assume that was supposed to be 1976, not 1876). Is it the "Petešic, Ciril (1976). Genij s našeg kamenjara (in Croatian). Zagreb: Školske novine. p. ???" source? Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 13:32, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it's Petešić book from 1976, not 1876, I'm sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oriol20 (talk • contribs) 13:36, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Ty, inserted. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 13:53, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry but you are doing original research. By saying "my professor of physics" one can mean few different things. Only and only if Tesla had one and the same professor of physics one can deduce that he means of him. Note that lab experiments could have been done by different professor than who thought the class. Tesla could have meant of him as he was also his professor, just not class professor but lab professor. You can't do that kind of original research. We have a secondary source which makes that connection: "Tesla does not mention on which the professor word, but it is certainly assumed it was with prof. Martin Sekulic". Fountains of Bryn Mawr, it is wrong to say that "some sources claim it was Martin Sekulic" because the absence of sources which explicitly claim that the professor is unknown. If we have a secondary source explicitly naming Martin Sekulic and no sources which just say professor, not going into details, then we have a case where some source goes into more details and that source should be used. Oriol20, you should find 2-3 secondary sources that explicitly mention Martin Sekulić, and those sources can easily be found and that's it. Don't go to original research. When Tesla's ethnicity can be stated without a single primary source or a single secondary source that references primary sources then of course that this can be stated. The bottom line is that you have a secondary source explicitly mentioning Martin Sekulic and Wikipedia should state it that way. No "some sources say" without any source which would contest that. They simply don't go to such details. No wonder since they haven't dealt with this question specifically. They have just taken Tesla's autobiography and restated "professor" without naming him since they would have to do extensive research to find who that was. It obviously wasn't that important to those foreign authors to find that our. For Croatian authors it is reasonable to understand that this info was important to them and that's why they have done the research.141.138.20.5 (talk) 16:50, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Source:

"In 1870, Tesla moved to Karlovac to attend school at Higher Real Gymnasium where he was profoundly influenced by a math teacher Martin Sekulic." [1]

"Pri tome je presudan i velik utjecaj imao i njegov profecor Martin Sekulic" [2]

"His most influential professor was Martin Sekulic" [3]

"Ondje ga je veoma oduševio njegov nastavnik iz fizike, Martin Sekulić " [4]

I've written "nikola tesla martin sekulic" into google books search nad those are the first 4 sources and the quotes. I'm sure that a lot more sources could be found which confirm that Tesla was inspired by Martin Sekulic. No need to go to original research and to claim that sources which took Tesla's autobiography as a source (which doesn't name Martin Sekulic) are somehow claiming that Martin Sekulic isn't that person. They simply don't go to details, but a lot of other sources do. "Some sources say..." formulation can't be used only because some sources don't mention him by name. It could be used if some sources mention Martin Sekulic and other sources disprove that. Then we would have a dispute among sources. Fountains of Bryn Mawr, you are an experienced editor. You should know all that, but somehow you are here disputing a secondary source which explicitly names Martin Sekulic with a primary source that doesn't go to such details, but doesn't dispute Martin Sekulic. At least you suggest "some sources say" unlike that other editor, but that is also wrong. You can't contest sources which go to greater detail with sources that don't go to such details. "Some sources say" would imply that some other sources are contesting that, not only some other but a greater part of other sources are contesting that. 141.138.20.5 (talk) 17:16, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

To put it in A-B than C formulation Fountains of Bryn Mawr, we don't have here as you say ""Sekulić was a physics teacher at the school, Tesla attended the school, therefor Sekulić taught Tesla" (A and B, therefore C)". What we have here is one group of sources that say "professor" and another group of sources that say "professor Martin Sekulic". The other group obviously go to greater detail. The first group of source do not contest the second group of sources in any way. We don't have a dispute between sources. 141.138.20.5 (talk) 17:22, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, I was beginning to think I was wrong. I am researching in Tesla's live and so I decided to create that page because it surprised me it wasn't created yet. --Oriol20 (talk) 17:46, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I noticed the discussion on Tesla talk page. If you go there, you'll find that Martin Sekulic is removed from the article. Talk page is protected so I can't post sources there. I see now that Fountains of Bryn Mawr had edited Tesla article: "Tesla does not mention which professor this was by name, but some sources point to/or conclude this was Prof. Martin Sekulic". This is also wrong as I had explained earlier. By this formulation he's giving more weight to sources that go to less detail while sources that go to greater detail are called "some sources". 141.138.20.5 (talk) 18:20, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Counting Google searched references gets nowhere because there is no discrimination re: WP:RS, for example:

• "My Inventions Nikola Tesla's Autobiography" synopsis - written by ME!!!, (its a copy/paste of Wikipedia... actually written by one of us). In "My Inventions" itself Tesla only mentions "my Professor of Physics".
• Seifer/"Wizard: The Life And Times Of Nikola Tesla" - Only cites two copies of "My Inventions" ref #45, again Tesla does not make a Sekulic claim in that work.

None of the sources being googled predate Ciril Petešic / 1976 and he only gives us a probability, not direct evidence. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:33, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I've just quoted 4 sources which explicitly mention Sekulic and you are claiming that those authors are not capable of doing their own research to find a name to professor Tesla mentioned? You can't claim those sources state something wrong without other sources to confirm your claim. You don't have a source which contests sources that explicitly mention Sekulic. You don't have a source saying "some sources say that professor is Sekulic but that can't be verified" or anything similar. That claim is your own. It's unreasonable to claim that one source doesn't mention the name so no one can ever find who that professor is. 141.138.20.5 (talk) 20:45, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

You are obviously not reading what I wrote, one of those authors IS ME!!!! --- err--- I will check back and let you know if I was capable of doing (my) own research.... back,,,, nope, I wasn't. Since you are an obvious WP:SOCKPUPPET of Asdisis I think I will find it better to ignore you. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't quite understand that part, so I skipped it. No need to go to attack mode. I still have problems with you inserting a claim "some sources say", however I won't insist too much on the proper wording since I can figure where that would lead. 141.138.20.5 (talk) 21:13, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary claims and arbitrary interpretations of references

W. Bernard Carlson: Tesla: Inventor of the Electrical Age, Princeton University Press page 29

Among these, Tesla was captivated by the radiometer invented by the British scientist William Crookes. Consisting of four tinfoil vanes on a pivot inside a vacuum bulb, Tesla was thrilled to see the vanes spin rapidly in bright light. Recalling his professor demonstrating this remarkable device, Tesla said, "It is impossible to me to convey an adequate idea of the intensity of feeling I experienced in witnessing his exhibitions of these mysterious phenomena. Every impression produced a thousand echoes in my mind. I wanted to know more of this wonderful force". In response, he red everything he could find about electricity and began experimenting with batteries, induction coils, and electrostatic generators.

Tesla: My inventions

During all those years my parents never wavered in their resolve to make me embrace the clergy, the mere thought of which filled me with dread. I had become intensely interested in electricity under the stimulating influence of my Professor of Physics, who was an ingenious man and often demonstrated the principles by apparatus of his own invention. Among these I recall a device in the shape of a freely rotatable bulb, with tinfoil coating, which was made to spin rapidly when connected to a static machine. It is impossible for me to convey an adequate idea of the intensity of feeling I experienced in witnessing his exhibitions of these mysterious phenomena. Every impression produced a thousand echoes in my mind. I wanted to know more of this wonderful force; I longed for experiment and investigation and resigned myself to the inevitable with aching heart.

First of all, Tesla says, "Professor of Physics, who was an ingenious man and often demonstrated the principles by apparatus of his own invention. Among these I recall a device in the shape of a freely rotatable bulb, with tinfoil coating, which was made to spin rapidly when connected to a static machine." Not what Carlson claimed "Tesla was captivated by the radiometer invented by the British scientist William Crookes".

Tesla nowhere in his autobiography wrote, "In response, he (I) red everything he could find about electricity and began experimenting with batteries, induction coils, and electrostatic generators" -- what Carlson claims.

But, in the article we see

The inventor Nikola Tesla noted in his 1919 autobiography My Inventions that when he attended the Kraljevska Velika Realka in Rakovac (Karlovac) between 1870 and 1873, demonstrations of electricity by his "professor of physics" sparked his interest in this "mysterious phenomena" and made him want "to know more of this wonderful force".[7][8] The details of who was teaching physics at that time and the nature of the demonstrations described have led some to conclude this professor was Martin Sekulić.[9]

Now where are "details of who was teaching physics at that time and the nature of the demonstrations described" and who made the conclusion? This is not a way to write an encyclopaedic article. --Vujkovica brdo (talk) 14:53, 14 September 2016 (UTC)-

Reverted it to version with Carlson removed. The paragraph in question is accurate as worded (Tesla's words: "intensely interested in electricity under the stimulating influence of my Professor of Physics"), just Carlson seems to be mixed up... Tesla was facinated with radiometers but that came later. Added other sources.

"details of who was teaching physics at that time and the nature of the demonstrations described" and who made the conclusion is Ciril Petešic in the 1976 book Genij s našeg kamenjara pp. 29–30, as given in translation above. Please note:((dubious)) tag is for sources that are incorrectly cited, not for sources an editor disagrees with. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 23:16, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

WP:OR and primary and secondary sources

What we have here is a secondary source saying, per Vujkovica brdo's translation, "with certainty it can be supposed it was prof. Martin Sekulic", opposed by some editors' personal interpretations of the primary sources. Wikipedia goes by what secondary sources make of primary sources, not by editors' personal interpretations of primary sources, so it's pretty clear who is doing the original research here. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 20:04, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

representative in the Provincial Assembly?

The claim he was a "public representative in the Provincial Assembly of the Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, and Dalmatia" does not appear in the source given. One editor posted Petešic, Ciril (1976). Genij s našeg kamenjara (in Croatian). Zagreb: Školske novine. p. 30 here which only describes him as "Professor • Martin Sekulic (1833-1905), who was at that time on the Rakovica realka taught physics and mathematics. He is a corresponding member of the Yugoslav Academy manosti and Arts in Zagreb, curator physics laboratory and libraries have in the Rakovica realka, lecturer Meteorological stations and a member of the Croatian pedagogical literary corps in Zagreb.". Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:13, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, Petešić's book doesn't say much about politics. This same tidbit appears at http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/tesla.html (kasnije i zastupnik u Hrvatskom Saboru), but is not specifically sourced there. They also seem to contradict the snapshot of Petešić's book with regard to the number of machines in the cabinet, 579 vs. 277. Either way, this should stay out until verified in a proper source. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 16:02, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Fountains of Bryn Mawr, since your userpage says nothing of the languages you speak, and since what you wrote doesn't read like normal English, I wasn't sure whether you'd used an online translator (thus making it vulnerable to mistranslations) or you'd translated it yourself. Accordingly, I asked for translation help at the Croatian Wikipedia; someone there confirmed what you said, so I've removed the bit about him being a politician. Nyttend (talk) 01:38, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Martin Sekulic was definitely a representative in Croatian Parlament (Hrvatski Sabor), from 1897. until his death. This information can be found in the paper I. Vukovic, A. Valent: Autori matematickih rasprava u izvjescima rakovacke realke (Prirodoslovlje 2016), available at http://www.matica.hr/media/uploads/prirodoslovlje/prirodoslovlje_2016-mali.pdf

The same article gives some so far unknown data on Sekulic's biography (e.g. it shows that Sekulic was educated in Military School in Olomouc) and lists Sekulic's bibliography.

There are also some interesting information on Sekulic's private life - for examaple, his son Rudolf was a military member, he died in the battle in Bukovina during WW1 and was posthumously promoted to the rank of general major. Sekulic's granddaughter, Sena Sekulic Gvozdanovic was prominent Croatian architect, "the first lady of Croatian arcitecture". As well as her grandfather, she was also the member of Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaglanec (talk • contribs) 23:25, 5 December 2017 (UTC)